PCL hires 8 of 11 from ATP

[higney85]

Where is hiney? He tell us how it is...is he 21?

Hey its Higney (theres a "G" in there...). I got interviewed and hired with under 1000 but I did have 4 letters of Rec and made sure I knew my stuff. I was by far the youngest of the interview class, and also had the lowest total time. If you want to know anything specifically please do ask. As far as ATP, I did not do anything through them.

 

[jtrain609]

Don't see what can happen as a CFI that will change my mind but we'll see

I am not talking about that low of time, I believe 600-700/150-300 hr range is enough experience.

completely agree, but is the freight dog cockpit environment and airline pilot environment the same? Nope, while I think experience from being a freight dog brings you superior flying skills, some of the skills, (im not saying all) learned flying single-pilot IFR does not transfer over to the airline cockpit.

Finally, if you pass the ground school and sim check ride, do you guys think that pilot who just PASSED is not experienced enough and ready for the cockpit? After all I've heard about how tough ground schools and sim rides are, if you pass it seems to me your experience was good enough. In the sim dont they pile on a rediculous amount of failures that make real-life emergencies a piece of cake? Like "the bird hitting the fan"? The airlines would not dare put an unsafe and unprepared pilot in the sky would they?

So you're telling a bunch of professional pilots, who have already been through all this stuff and have made it to where you're trying to get, that your view with having no experience in what you're talking about is as valid as ours? How can you talk about something when you're not doing it? I'm not gonna lecture mtsu_av8er about what it's like to be shot at because I never have been, and he has. I've read about it, but I don't have a clue.

I'm...ahh....I'm not really sure that holds much water eh?

 

[Trip7]

So you're telling a bunch of professional pilots, who have already been through all this stuff and have made it to where you're trying to get, that you're view with having no experience in what you're talking about is as valid as ours?

I'm...ahh....I'm not really sure that holds much water eh?

Very good point, i am a very unexperienced pilot! But on the other hand I am basing my opinion on facts. ATP instructors seem to get hired routinely in this range of experience and they seemed to be experienced enough to pass GS, sim check, and move on to have sucessful airline careers. Can you please tell me how the extra 300-500 hours of experience would have helped them?

 

[jtrain609]

Ok bro sorry but you're gonna get your balls busted a little bit here.

First you say that you're basing your opinion on facts. So is it an opinion, or facts? Beacuse if it's empirical then it's not an opinion, it's a statement of truth. Further in your next sentence you say , "ATP instructors seem to..." So do they seem to do something, or do they do something? And in what quanity? Sounds like you're talking hype more than anything else.

Next question; do you have a private pilots license? Have you passed any checkrides? If you have, then you know that passing a checkride means jack for actually going out and doing something in the real world. If you pass your instrument ride today, should you go out and shoot an ILS down to Cat I mins? Sure you're legal to, but is it safe? If you say yes, you obviously haven't passed that checkride yet. If you have, you've got a few things to learn before you kill yourself. A license is nothing but a license to learn, not exercise the full privilages full out from the get go. It doesn't matter what you read about the issue, trust me when you're popping out at minimums and you see the approach lighting, there isn't much to see. You can't read about that in a book, you've got to do it.

Which is why Steve pulled out the post that he did. You're confusing experience levels with the ability to pass a checkride. I'll tell you what, any private pilot could pass the maneuvers on a commercial checkride. To be real honest, they're a joke. Does that mean they should be able to be commercial pilots? Of course not! They don't have any of the experience that is needed to be a real commercial pilot. Heck even at 250 hours you don't really know much about flying an airplane.

And those first 300-500 hours of instructing after your commercial ride are CRITICAL to learning how to fly an airplalne. How do I know? Because I did it. How do I know it's true? Every other instructor I know agree's with me. In fac the only people that argue about this stuff are the guys that have not been there and done that yet.

You know how your parents always said that you'll understand why they did things the way they did when you were older? Remember how when you got older you realized that they were right? It's the same thing here.

Trust us.

 

[averyrm]

I think this is a lot like being a teenager. When you're a teen, you feel like you know everything and that the adult world is fairly retarded. You hear "damn teenagers" and take offense.

Then, 10 years or so later, you look back and think, "man, I was pretty much an idiot back then," and feel old as you dispair about teenagers today. This has been going on forever, I'm pretty sure ancient man's first words were, "ook ook, damn teenagers, ook."

When I had 300 hours, I thought I'd be perfectly safe in a jet as a copilot. I now have about six times that and realize I was an idiot. After CFI'ing and freight dawgin, I think that soon I'd be able to be an effective crewmember in a jet environment (after about 100 or so hours time in type).

Now before you say, "but ATP makes great pilots," let me offer this. I believe that only being trained one way, by one place, in one location (flying in vero for 1000 hours isn't exactly diverse), in a short amount of time (maybe only one season) limits severely what you can bring to the table, especially when things go south.

Also, passing a checkride doesn't mean anything. The piece of paper is just enough to hurt you if you're not careful.

 

[Trip7]

Ok bro sorry but you're gonna get your balls busted a little bit here.

First you say that you're basing your opinion on facts. So is it an opinion, or facts? Beacuse if it's empirical then it's not an opinion, it's a statement of truth. Further in your next sentence you say , "ATP instructors seem to..." So do they seem to do something, or do they do something? And in what quanity? Sounds like you're talking hype more than anything else.

Next question; do you have a private pilots license? Have you passed any checkrides? If you have, then you know that passing a checkride means jack for actually going out and doing something in the real world. If you pass your instrument ride today, should you go out and shoot an ILS down to Cat I mins? Sure you're legal to, but is it safe? If you say yes, you obviously haven't passed that checkride yet. If you have, you've got a few things to learn before you kill yourself. A license is nothing but a license to learn, not exercise the full privilages full out from the get go. It doesn't matter what you read about the issue, trust me when you're popping out at minimums and you see the approach lighting, there isn't much to see. You can't read about that in a book, you've got to do it.

Which is why Steve pulled out the post that he did. You're confusing experience levels with the ability to pass a checkride. I'll tell you what, any private pilot could pass the maneuvers on a commercial checkride. To be real honest, they're a joke. Does that mean they should be able to be commercial pilots? Of course not! They don't have any of the experience that is needed to be a real commercial pilot. Heck even at 250 hours you don't really know much about flying an airplane.

And those first 300-500 hours of instructing after your commercial ride are CRITICAL to learning how to fly an airplalne. How do I know? Because I did it. How do I know it's true? Every other instructor I know agree's with me. In fac the only people that argue about this stuff are the guys that have not been there and done that yet.

You know how your parents always said that you'll understand why they did things the way they did when you were older? Remember how when you got older you realized that they were right? It's the same thing here.

Trust us.

I agree with most of the things you have said. But someone earning their private pilots license is much different than a type rating for lets say a CRJ! Airlines are training a pilot that is part of a crew that is responsible for the lives of many on every flight! That pilot BETTER be ready to fly after training don't you think? Would I trust a new private pilot to take a flight with one of my loved ones right after his checkride? Nope, would I have them fly on a ExpressJet flight with a new 700hr pilot as the FO? Yes! Ok I'll make my previous statement aggressive, ATP instructors routinely pass GS and the Sim check and go on and have sucessful and SAFE airline careers! BTW im a private pilot working on my instrument rating in college, planning to do ATP multi-engine program in Dec, than their CFI program after I graduate and then move on to instructing! Hopefully with ATP!

I am enjoying my instrument training and I look forward to the day I become an instructor and start building the essential experience learned those first couple hundred hrs! Do I support PFT? Absolutely not! 200-300hr pilots do not belong in the cockpit of a regional jet just because they paid for their job! To me a 700 hr pilot with extensive multi-engine experience that ATP and Ari Ben or Ben Ari whatever its called have what it takes to make it do the next level! Even if they passed their GS and check ride wouldn't they fail the PC required by airlines at the end of their one year probation period? Once again are regional airlines falling out of the sky because of inexperienced pilots from schools like ATP? I haven't heard any Nightline stories about this issue! And I do trust you guys, for the most part!

 

[jtrain609]

Have you ever flown a multi engine aircraft? Have you ever had somebody mash on the wrong rudder pedal during an engine failure while you think to yourself, "Hmm....I wonder if a full rudder input and asymetric thrust is enough to spin this thing..." I mean until you're there you're still working with conjecture and marketing hype.

Also, training at an airline isn't teaching you how to be a pilot that can make good decisions; they're assuming you can already do that. The ONLY thing you get taught in an airline's ground school is how to operate their aircraft with their profiles. That's it. Not how to dodge thunderstorms, deal with pissed off passengers, not how to shoot an approach to mins and all this other stuff you need to know BEFORE you get there.

I'm telling you bro, you're going to be singing a COMPLETELY different tune after you give 100 hours of dual. I know I did.

 

[Trip7]

Then, 10 years or so later, you look back and think, "man, I was pretty much an idiot back then,"

Man, I'm flying this CRJ around the country and most of my college buddies are still instructing at the university for $500 a month! Why did I choose ATP? Damn! I was an idiot back then!

 

[averyrm]

You'll see.

 

[jtrain609]

Man, I'm flying this CRJ around the country and most of my college buddies are still instructing at the university for $500 a month! Why did I choose ATP? Damn! I was an idiot back then!

And I'll be flying freight making your third year wage while logging turbine PIC time.

Just make sure you save this and look at it in a few years. Trust me bro, I've only got 700 hours and I just graduated college. I know exactly where you're sitting. Heck, averym is in the eact same position only he has like 1,500 more hours than me.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

flying a crj around the country? more like never leaving one state on a four day

get a bid package and take a look at it real good, one month at a time

 

[Captain_Bob]

Now before you say, "but ATP makes great pilots," let me offer this. I believe that only being trained one way, by one place, in one location (flying in vero for 1000 hours isn't exactly diverse), in a short amount of time (maybe only one season) limits severely what you can bring to the table, especially when things go south.

Agree... which is why ATP offers real world Cross Country experience in varying airspace, terrain, and weather. My XC's took me from DFW to Chicago, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Sacremento, Salem Oregon, etc... You are mentioning Vero... I think you might have ATP mixed up with another flight school completely.

Trust us.

John... your making it sound like the Collective in here. "Trust us... there is no other rational opinions or safe ways of doing things... you will be assimiliated..."

Now... I'm a mid-life career changer as everyone knows. When I did my research to flight schools and FBO's across the country I was saying and thinking many of the same things that 777 is. Now that I've got 2500TT and 1500 Turbine... my story hasn't really changed. I've "been there, done that." but I acknowledge that I'm sill "going there and doing that..." When does one's opinion and thoughts become valid? When they get their Private... then they'll understand... When they get their Multi CFI... then they'll understand... When they get their first 121 gig... then they'll understand... When they upgrade then they'll understand... When they get hired at a Major then they'll understand... When they upgrade at the Majors... then they'll understand.

Where does it end? Where does it begin? We've all acknowledged that we've seen high timers & captains being completely unsafe and potential screw ups... Why can we not also have the potential to see low timers as just the opposite? The argument seems to be... "Well, the screw up high-timer at least has the "experience" to get himself out of the mess he get's himself into." That just doesn't fly with me.

I have always felt safe in the air. I have always felt comfortable and confident... even when my students were trying to kill me. My confidence and comfort level have certainly grown with my time and experience... but I dont' think any of us can say... BING! That's the perfect level of experience that you need.... right there... no need to continue... you've made it!

I've had some really wonderful rational debates with low timers and high timers on this board. I've had people tell me... "just wait and see." I've been waiting... I have yet to see some of their points... Being eligible for upgrade now... I have a lot of captains tell me about the last new guy they flew with... It's often humorous to hear the stories they tell about the plane taking off and the guys are still at the base running to catch up to the plane.

These guys are ex-freight dawgs, ex-flight instructors, ex-interns, ex-crop dusters, high timers and low timers alike. To hear the "majority" on here talk... you'd think they were all 500 hour wonders from ATP. The stories from the Captains are the same... no matter where those new FO's came from. The fact is... There is a learning curve in any new job, in any new aircraft, in any new situation... period.

My airline has hired about 1500 pilots since I came on... maybe 40 of them were ATP. I'm only aware of 1 washing out of GS. The rest... even myself... had the same learning curve to overcome that the other 1400+ did.

It's a matter of the individual's attention to detail. The individuals professionalism, study habits, coordination, knowledge, abilities, etc... not simply the time listed on a little green page in a logbook. It's all up to the individual. That's why we see high time screw-ups... and my argument is that's why we can see low-time professionals with opinions and decision making skills that are just as valid on the flight deck.

I know... I know... "You'll see Bob."

Bob

flying a crj around the country? more like never leaving one state on a four day

get a bid package and take a look at it real good, one month at a time

Vlad... My Zihuatenejo Overnnight followed by my Toronto Overnight, last week and my LAX, Indy, LRD overnights this trip beg to differ with you on that one.

This is a topic that comes up pretty often.

Yep... here was the last one!
http://www.jetcareers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26447

 

[jtrain609]

• Bob, that's way too much to read with the number of beers I've had.

Hey I'm probably not bailing on town until like the 14th, when do you get back from your trip again?

 

[zmiller4]

Man, I'm flying this CRJ around the country and most of my college buddies are still instructing at the university for $500 a month! Why did I choose ATP? Damn! I was an idiot back then!

Read this again, because John hit it on the head:

training at an airline isn't teaching you how to be a pilot that can make good decisions; they're assuming you can already do that. The ONLY thing you get taught in an airline's ground school is how to operate their aircraft with their profiles. That's it. Not how to dodge thunderstorms, deal with pissed off passengers, not how to shoot an approach to mins and all this other stuff you need to know BEFORE you get there.

Believe me, when you look back at the time you spent instructing or whatever else you do to build hours (unless you're a 400hr wonderchild), you'll realize how valuable the experience was.

 

[Captain_Bob]

• Bob, that's way too much to read with the number of beers I've had.

Hey I'm probably not bailing on town until like the 14th, when do you get back from your trip again?

John... I get back on the 14th... Are you heading out that night? I might be taking a few days of emergency leave in preparation for my new family addition that's due in 10 days... so I might swing it. Give me a date and time Dude...

Bob

 

[jtrain609]

Hey I'll call ya here soon and maybe we can do lunch or something! Are you guys really having a kid that soon!?

 

[Captain_Bob]

Yep! Heidi's about to burst!

I have the weekend off too.

Bob

 

[jonnyb]

I've "been there, done that."

Really Bob? That's quite a bold statement for 2500TT and no command jet experience.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Really Bob? That's quite a bold statement for 2500TT and no command jet experience.

Johnny... yes it is isn't it. Regardless, you took it out of context... please read the rest of the sentence.

I've "been there, done that." but I acknowledge that I'm sill "going there and doing that..."

I'm not anywhere's close to the "end all and be all" of aviation.... My experience is still growing, I am still learning.

In a way... you are kind of proving my point. There will always be someone with more time than me giving their opinions on how I should do things. Where does it end? I'm fully expecting a post in 5+ years from now that says... "Really Bob? That's quite a bold statement for 6500TT/2500PIC TurbineTime and no Heavy Jet Widebody command experience." Again... being safe, responsible, and knowledgeable is all up to the individual, and the decisions they make. It's not always about that little number on the bottom right page of your logbook.

We see it everyday in the real world... and we see it everyday in aviation. CRM ground school... listening to cockpit voice recordings of experienced high time crew members flying into the sides of mountains, running out of fuel for stupid reasons... etc. Southwest Pilots trying to fly drunk, Skywest pilots being removed from aircraft due to alcohol on their breath...

It's a double sided arguement. If someone comes on here and says that they think they have the ability to make the right decisions under pressure... then someone will say... you don't have the TT or the PIC time to make that statement.

If someone comes on here and say they have the TT to make the right choices then you'll hear folks say... "It's not all about being a good stick... anyone can learn to fly the aircraft... it's about making solid command decisions."

Well... I'm for the happy medium...

Bob

 

[jonnyb]

Yeah, I've had a few too many of these conversations. That'll be it for me tonight. You guys got it all figured out anyways.