PCL hires 8 of 11 from ATP

[Trip7]

So what you're saying is that you're a flight sim geek with a private pilots license that is finishing an aviation degree at a halfway ok school and you're lecturing a flight instructor, a freight dawg, a regional pilot and a NetJets captain about how this all works? Son, you've got a few things to learn. Majoring in english and you want to lecture on grammar? Great! Maybe philosophy and you want to talk about descrates? Perfect! But you want to argue the finer points of doing something that you have not been trained to do yet with a bunch of professionals that have already been where you're sitting, and used to think what you do?

I dunno bro it just doesn't make much sense. And yeah that China gig is pretty decent. I got ML from your school (he instructed there) his MEI a few months ago and he's out there right now. He was one hell of a good pilot, better than me hands down in fact. And I worked with another kid that went to your school. Their best atributes?

They were humble and they knew what they didn't know.

This will be fun here we go

1. I got a whole bunch of sucessful ATP graduates that are having sucessful careers at the airlines such as Capt Bob that will back up everything I am saying in case Im too inexperienced for you guys.

2. Yeah, you talking about Mark, you r right awesome pilot, good friend of mine.

3. Halfway ok school? While SOSU is not an ERAU or UND, it provides excellent training at awesome prices and the aviation faulty here is second to none thank you very much! Just go to aviation.sosu.edu and take a look for yourself, and visit the alumni forum too to take a look at the pilots produced from this half way ok school.

4.Whats wrong with being a flightsim geek? Im pretty sure Im not the only one on this site that loves aviation! Also, come stay in Durant a couple days and tell me if there is anything better to do lol!

5. I know you guys are more experienced than me, I just have a different view point of things. You all are right, experience is very valuable, but I think you all put too much emphasis on it. Why? Because you don't think think a 500-700 hr pilot belongs in the cockpit! Im just curious why because based on the facts they do! Heck there is So until planes start falling out of the sky because of this inexperience, especially when dodging thunderstorms or doing approaches to minimums, or if captains start a petition b/c they are doing all the work b/c I know someone is going to mention that, or ATP grads start flunking out of airlines, or dont see where you guys are going with all this. I mean it seems most of you took the longer route to where you are and are intent that it was the best way. So if you can find someone who went through ATP or a program like that(not gulfstream! in no way I support that type of nonsense) and got to where you r and wish they would of taken the more "experience road" please let me know!

 

[jtrain609]

I dunno Sean, I'm not convinced he's a troll JUST yet. I just think this kid is uninformed and doesn't really understand what he's saying. If I really did think he was a troll then I wouldn't have wasted more than about one post just calling him a tool and moving on. But I think this guy has got some potential. He's not really saying dumb things, just uninformed and uneducated. I can see, if you've never been through a training program and you've never been employed to fly, how you can think passing a checkride means you're qualified to do X job. In fact it might look that way from the outside if we use other standards that other professions use, such as the bar exam with lawyers. But aviation is simply a different animal and I don't think he gets that yet.

 

[Trip7]

John, you realize you're wasting great advice on a troll with 8 posts right?


:buck:

10 posts now, gotta love that experience!

 

[MDPilot]

So what you're saying is that you're a flight sim geek with a private pilots license that is finishing an aviation degree at a halfway ok school and you're lecturing a flight instructor, a freight dawg, a regional pilot and a NetJets captain about how this all works? Son, you've got a few things to learn. Majoring in english and you want to lecture on grammar? Great! Maybe philosophy and you want to talk about descrates? Perfect! But you want to argue the finer points of doing something that you have not been trained to do yet with a bunch of professionals that have already been where you're sitting, and used to think what you do?

I dunno bro it just doesn't make much sense. And yeah that China gig is pretty decent. I got ML from your school (he instructed there) his MEI a few months ago and he's out there right now. He was one hell of a good pilot, better than me hands down in fact. And I worked with another kid that went to your school. Their best atributes?

They were humble and they knew what they didn't know.

Bingo John!! :yeahthat:

 

[jtrain609]

Hey there boss, I AM a 600 hour pilot.

To put it bluntly dude, you haven't actually gone out there and done it yet. You've been sheltered, and that won't change for a while.

You know me, Bob and kellwolf all worked at the same airport, right? Me and kellwolf worked together and Bob worked down the field. Bob is one hell of a great guy, I'm sure he's an excellent pilot and he has had a different view on these things. I respect Bob's views on these issues because I know him personally and I know he's got some experience behind what he's saying. But with that being said, Bob is largely alone in his opinions on this issue. Bob and Dugie are probably the only two guys on these forums with considerable experience that advocate that with the proper training, attitude and apitude a candidate can do exactly what you're saying. I think there's some merit to that, but I am personally a believer in experience being the best teacher and as kellwolf said, when you get to an airliner cockpit you're not training anymore; you're doing.

Oh and if you want to hear horror stories about low time FO's, talk with Bog. He's had to deal with a lot of them.

 

[jtrain609]

Oh and FYI, I'm only 24 and I'm also a fairly fresh college graduate. I don't know much about this crap, but what I do know is that this flying thing ain't a game. Believe me your opinions on all of this stuff change drastically after you do 100-200 hours of primary instruction.

 

[BobDDuck]

Don't take this the wrong way too much. I'm just in a grumpy mood right now.

Uh..no, thats why there is IOE right? If they dont catch up, are they not handed a pink slip? If they get thru IOE and struggle through out the first year are they not let go? Isn't this why it is a probation period? This is why air travel is safe! Isn't this why regionals pay 19k during this time and major airlines pay 30k? Just because a pilot struggles learning a new plane whether it be GS, sim or IOE should they have their career shut down because they didnt pick it up as quickly? NO. Moreover, would I as a captain want to be paired with a struggling FO? Yes in fact I would. Being a captain I must be one heck of a seasoned and proficient pilot. I would do anything to help that struggling FO accomplish his dreams and keep him from failing. I would give him tips, my phone number to keep me updated on his experiences, anything to help someone who loves the job as much as I do!

Actually by the time you are captain if the FO sucks that bad (and has the attitude we are taking about here) you probably wouldn't do anything except request not to fly with them again. There are VERY few captains (or even FOs really) that love the job as much as you think they do. Sure, call me a bitter regional pilot (I am!) but while this job is a heck of a lot better then a lot of other jobs, that's all it is at the end of the day. And OE isn't the place to worry about crushing their dreams. If they can't hack it they are out. However if a company has just spent 30K on training somebody they really don't want to burn the investment. The sad truth is that if they aren't going to completly suck they are most likely sent to the line for a captain to have to deal with.

Ok, I'm going to make a new industry standard, now one is experienced enough to fly an airline with passengers until you have 2500TT/500 multi. I mean gosh, we need to practice dodging thunderstorms, flying approaches down to minimums and all that other important stuff before we step into the cockpit of and airpline with an experienced captain and passengers on board! I think most of us are now all low-time pilots!

Depends on what you are doing in those 2500 hours. Bouncing around the pattern in a 172 isn't going to do much for you. However, trucking around the country in a beat up cargo plane or even teaching students in a more complex aircraft and entering different control environments with them will certainly be valuable. It comes down to the fact that you can trust your self to make descisions.

Im sorry but I respectly disagree. If Joe Bob takes the CRJ course and that course helped him become as safe and as proficient an airline pilot you and other regional airlines pilots in this forum, more power to them! They have the right to spend the money! In high school I could only manage a 940 SAT without a prepcourse. With a prepcourse I got a 1100. Can others get a 1100 or more without a prepcourse? Absolutely! Does that mean I am not smart and do not deserve to go to a college with a minimum acceptance score of 1050? Absolutely not! I took the prepcourse, worked my tail off, and got a better score! Same scenario.

Or maybe without the precourse you weren't ready to take the SAT?

I know the sims are not real life but come on people, they are darn near close! I was in a 777 sim at their DFW training center and my goodness those thing are amazing pieces of technology! And how many of those multiple failures they torture you with in the sim are realistically going to happy in real life all at the same time? There is a time and a place to be a rookie for everything! Newly minted instructor with their first student, Doctor doing their first surgery, NFL player playing their first game, experience can only take you so far.

How do you know how "real" 777 sims are? If you never flew the actual plane you have no idea how close it is to the real thing. Sure, it felt more real then flying MSFS around but a sim really isn't all that. Failures aren't so much of a problem. When you have a failure in a plane there is a very strick set of procedures you follow in the QRH. They tell you exactly what to do. Sure there is some thought processes involved but for the most part you are running checklists. Where the problem comes is with judgement calls... Should I start a descent now or wait? Should I kick this passenger off or let them stay? Should I tell the captain that he is going WAY to fast to configure in time? NFL players spend some time in college learning their skills. Some of them play semi pro ball elswhere first too.

Once again, I am not advocating 300 hr pilots, just voicing my opinion that some of you guys are overkilling experience. The main reason experience requirements was so high for you older pilots? Because there was a surplus amount of pilots! They had to cut some of you off! Now with the mass retirement of the baby boomer pilots starting to begin, regionals are scrambling to pick up pilots because they are bleeding Captains! Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. There isn't a pilot shortage. Never has. Probably won't ever be. Stop reading what Kit Darby is writing.

I mean good lord UPS is paying 2nd year FOs $149 an hr! (http://airlinepilotcentral.com/reso...ces/southwest,_ups_raise_bar_20060902134.html)
We all need to start looking at the positive side of this career we all love! Pay increases, Airline Pilots rank #12 on forbes list of highest paying jobs, and goodness people I am goin to throw a fit if people keep complaining about first year pay as if they are getting paid 19k every year at the regional. Most major airline first year pay is only 10k to 15k more! Overall this is a lucrative career that pays a lot of money. If we all stick together, low-time and high-time pilots we can get everything we want out of this profession!

Not sure where you are going with this. I hate to break it to you but it isn't really that high paying of a career. Pay isn't increasing, or at least it hasn't in the past few years. First year pay at a reagional may only be 20K but it doesn't really go up from there and you top out at 100k or so. Sure that sounds like good money to you (and me right now too) but for a family of 4 and you having to be away 350 hours a month it really isn't that great. At least at the majors you had a chance to make more at some point in time. But again, I'm not really sure what you are talking about here.

 

[Trip7]

I dunno Sean, I'm not convinced he's a troll JUST yet. I just think this kid is uninformed and doesn't really understand what he's saying. If I really did think he was a troll then I wouldn't have wasted more than about one post just calling him a tool and moving on. But I think this guy has got some potential. He's not really saying dumb things, just uninformed and uneducated. I can see, if you've never been through a training program and you've never been employed to fly, how you can think passing a checkride means you're qualified to do X job. In fact it might look that way from the outside if we use other standards that other professions use, such as the bar exam with lawyers. But aviation is simply a different animal and I don't think he gets that yet.

Absolutely agree that just because you pass a checkride does not mean you qualify for XXX airline job. Sorry if my previous post came thru that way. Thats why there is that one year probationary period and if you still dont cut it you r out! Isnt your job on the line during the PC after your probation period ended? At least that is what my cousin at Mesa said. What I am saying is if a 500-700hr pilot from a excellent flight school like ATP can do it why should he stay instructing longer? Im trying really hard to see you older pilots point but it still hasnt got to me yet! When will it get to me? When Im a CFI?(at ATP hopefully) I want to agree with you guys but you have given me is excuses like the CA or autopilot is doing all the work. I believe todays initial training programs at regional airlines including the probationary 1 year period provide the safeguards required to produce a safe and proficient pilots and based on my fellow pilots with opposing opinions, the 250-700 hr pilots do not have the type of experienced required to make it through the training and the fact is THEY ARE MAKING IT AND MAKING IT SAFELY.

 

[BobDDuck]

What I am saying is if a 500-700hr pilot from a excellent flight school like ATP can do it why should he stay instructing longer?

I think I see what is going on here. Here's the 411. The training ATP provides is good. However it is no better really (and in some cases worse) then other places. Where the "great ATP training" comes is when you are an instructor and getting a whole lot of PIC multi time teaching people. That's why ATP people are doing well at airlines. In the 100 hours of instructing at ATP I became 10x better pilot then I was before. The next 500 hours of instruction I gave only increasesed that. I would be interested to see how many people ATP has sent to the regionals who have no dual given at all. Those would be the ones that I would worry about.

 

[jtrain609]

True dat. ATP for sure gets people through checkrides...but that's about it from what I can see (I didn't do ATP's program so I can't tell you for sure).

777 this is all going to make sense after your first 100 hours of dual given, trust me. Save this and read it in a few years.

 

[Airdale]

This topic is getting kicked so bad its worthless to debate it, let alone read it.

Everyone thinks they have the answers, that they know it all, that the way they did it is supposed to be the only way. Half of the people think xxxx amount of hours is the best and the next guy thinks its xxx and yet nobody mentions that every individual is different and while xxx hours might work for Bill, John needs xxxx hours because he sucks and can't logically make good decisions.

And maybe Bill has a military backround where low time pilots are strapped into fast jets with missles and Bill excels in everything he does because he was just born with a special gene of top notch human specimens. The guy can be strapped into the right seat of any commercial jet with half of the systems failed and shoot an ILS approach to mins with 2 engines out and a screaming women in labor in the back and the Captain in tears citing his own last rites.. And despite all of the impossible challenges, Bill squeaks out a perfect landing because the military taught him thats how it has to be done.

Meanwhile John can't think for himself or contemplate which magazine to read on the toilet and if John is ever in a Jet at xxx hours, the skies going to fall and people will die because John is so called wonder boy who is still wet behind the ears and still wondering how babies are made.

You guys can sit here and tell your life story and back everything up with your own personal experiences and state that 400hrs isn't nearly enough to be piloting a jet and yet - while you argue over such a stupid topic - the airlines continue to train and evaluate pilots with 400hrs and place them into the cockpit of their jet aircraft and send them on their way. It doesn't matter how you feel about the time requirements, because you are not the one making the hiring decisions. And if Airline B evaluates a 400hr pilot and learns that this pilot has excellent decision making skills, has a rounded knowledge base and can fly the wheels off their sim with emergency after emergency then they send them to that RJ cockpit.

I'm an instructor with 250 dual given, I've seen 85hr private pilots fly airplanes and make decisions like they came out of their mother's with a yoke in their hand. I've seen 300hr Commercial pilots who can't find their ass in a whole in the ground.

I've flown with ATP candidates with 3000 hours who can't fly an ILS approach to save their live and if the checklist doesn't tell them what to do, they haven't a clue. Yet I've had 200 hour students going for their Instrument rating who can fly an ILS approach perfect to mins and have decision making skills that the 3000hr pilot would envy. Every person is different, every person handles stress and emergency situations differently and as long as the airlines evaluate the PERSON and their ABILITIES as well as their DECISION making skills, then who really cares what their logbook says. Some people should NOT be Airline pilots, reguardless of how many hours they have, some people can make GREAT airline pilots at 400hrs.

Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one and they all stink. When I feel I'm ready for an Airline job, I'll apply. Until then, I'll continue to learn, continue to teach and when I feel I'm ready for the next level, I'll go. But one thing is for sure, I've never had two alike students. I always have to adapt the training to suite the student. Some guys are great students who actually teach me a thing or two, other students I wouldn't send my favorite pet hamster in the back seat with on a flight. Some days I have to save the airplane because the student screws up, some days I can sit back and watch a 100 hour wonder fly the airplane *almost* as good as me. Life's short, enjoy the ride.

 

[Trip7]

I think I see what is going on here. Here's the 411. The training ATP provides is good. However it is no better really (and in some cases worse) then other places. Where the "great ATP training" comes is when you are an instructor and getting a whole lot of PIC multi time teaching people. That's why ATP people are doing well at airlines. In the 100 hours of instructing at ATP I became 10x better pilot then I was before. The next 500 hours of instruction I gave only increasesed that. I would be interested to see how many people ATP has sent to the regionals who have no dual given at all. Those would be the ones that I would worry about.

Thank you Airdale! Well said. Any logical person should be able to read what he said and come up with the conclusion that it is the truth, no if and or buts about it! Alright, someone finally that somewhat sees what im saying. So lets say I get my instrument/commercial, multi rating and have 300hrs. I then go to ATP and earn my CFIs. Im lucky enough to be hired as an instructor there and after 5 months of instructing I have 600TT/300MT. I get an interview with ExpressJet and am hired. Do you guys think I belong in the cockpit at that point? BTW this is the perfect scenario for me and I do realize their is high chance things will not work out exactly this way. Besides this China thing is look more and more exotic!

 

[jtrain609]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I DO have all the answers.

 

[jtrain609]

Alright, someone finally that somewhat sees what im saying. So lets say I get my instrument/commercial, multi rating and have 300hrs. I then go to ATP and earn my CFIs. Im lucky enough to be hired as an instructor there and after 5 months of instructing I have 600TT/300MT. I get an interview with ExpressJet and am hired. Do you guys think I belong in the cockpit at that point? BTW this is the perfect scenario for me and I do realize their is high chance things will not work out exactly this way. Besides this China thing is look more and more exotic!

My opinion is no. I'm *personally* of the opinion that you don't belong in a jet with under 1,000 hours. That pisses off a lot of people, and I know a lot of great pilots that have been flying jets with under 1,000 hours safely (Bob, kellwolf, FlyChicaga, etc. etc.), but that's my personal opinion on the matter. I have nothing to back it up, but I don't think I belong in a jet with 1,000 hours. 600 hours and into a turboprop? Cool, I think that's a good speed for a 600 hour pilot (like me). In reality it's not THAT much faster than the Seneca you're already probably flying around. But a jet? That's an easy 400 knots faster.

Again, personal opinion.

 

[Trip7]

My opinion is no. I'm *personally* of the opinion that you don't belong in a jet with under 1,000 hours. That pisses off a lot of people, and I know a lot of great pilots that have been flying jets with under 1,000 hours safely (Bob, kellwolf, FlyChicaga, etc. etc.), but that's my personal opinion on the matter. I have nothing to back it up, but I don't think I belong in a jet with 1,000 hours. 600 hours and into a turboprop? Cool, I think that's a good speed for a 600 hour pilot (like me). In reality it's not THAT much faster than the Seneca you're already probably flying around. But a jet? That's an easy 400 knots faster.

Again, personal opinion.

I respect your opinion but 1,000 isn't anything but a number. Just a number.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I respect your opinion but 1,000 isn't anything but a number. Just a number.

No it's not it's a level of experience!

 

[zmiller4]

I believe todays initial training programs at regional airlines including the probationary 1 year period provide the safeguards required to produce a safe and proficient pilots

How do you know what an airline's training program provides if you haven't been through one? If you had been through one, you'd know that in ground school the emphasis is put on aircraft systems and that they generally assume a base level of knowledge of weather, NAS, IFR procedures, and other intangibles that come from experience rather than some course. As has been said here before, training at an airline is geared towards teaching you to fly the airplane, and while IOE does reveal how you work in a 121 environment, it's just a snapshot of what your performance will be like.

based on my fellow pilots with opposing opinions, the 250-700 hr pilots do not have the type of experienced required to make it through the training and the fact is THEY ARE MAKING IT AND MAKING IT SAFELY

Nah, no one's saying that they can't make it through training--we're saying that by and large, they don't have the experience necessary to operate as an effective crew member over the whole spectrum of possible situations.

Several captains at my current airline have told me how happy they are that our current class (we're just about done with training) is over 50% prior 121, because even with some FO's with normal hiring minimums (1000/100) they still feel like they're essentially flying by themselves. Does that sound safe to you?

 

[MikeD]

. So lets say I get my instrument/commercial, multi rating and have 300hrs. I then go to ATP and earn my CFIs. Im lucky enough to be hired as an instructor there and after 5 months of instructing I have 600TT/300MT. I get an interview with ExpressJet and am hired. Do you guys think I belong in the cockpit at that point?

If I were a pax on that flight, I'd have to deplane.......for my own survival.

 

[MikeD]

Thank you Airdale! Well said. Any logical person should be able to read what he said and come up with the conclusion that it is the truth, no if and or buts about it!

Wait a second, didn't he just get done saying that everyone has an opinon, and that they all stink?

And now this opinion is gospel?

 

[wheelsup]

Now with the mass retirement of the baby boomer pilots starting to begin, regionals are scrambling to pick up pilots because they are bleeding Captains! Am I wrong? I mean good lord UPS is paying 2nd year FOs $149 an hr!

Yes and no. They aren't "bleeding" captains because the captains are moving on to greener pastures (ie flying jobs), the captains are leaving to become firefighters, electricians, realtors, mortage brokers, etc. And this is just at my airline. A select few have gone on to the "majors" but for those that haven't it's not for lack of trying. Ask yourself, how many jobs have been created at the major airline level? Pre-9/11 the legacies were hiring 100/month each, now there are thousands furloughed.

If you SERIOUSLY think that the UPS pay raise was do to a shortage of pilots, you are more nieve than you think you are...