PCL hires 8 of 11 from ATP
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killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Does this mean when a DE or FSDO becomes certificated, they are also given certain latitude and discretion about the PTS they're checking? Are the tolerances for what they're allowed published?
Just seems like if the DE or FSDO is having a bad hair day, an otherwise qualified applicant might bust. It is what it is, I guess.
Just seems like if the DE or FSDO is having a bad hair day, an otherwise qualified applicant might bust. It is what it is, I guess.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Duck over to the CAPT thread and you'll see a couple of examples of those "humming just fine." They think they're doing great, but the CAs are about ready to smack them.
Yeah, I had under 1000 hours....by 43 hours. I'm not talking guys in the 700-900 hour range, I'm talking guys in the 300-500 hour range that really haven't done much. I did more than instruct, too. I did a lot of flying around with friends on x/cs, I did a couple of ferry gigs (one from AZ to TX in a 172 at night, in thunderstorms and wound up picking up icing) and flew a wide variety of aircraft, not just Seminoles and 172s. My beef is mainly with the guys that shell out thousands of dollars for a bridge program just so they can get the short cut. If myself (and 95% of the other guys) can pass ground school at a 121 airline, I don't see why in the hell someone would shell out the cash just to get to a sub-$20K a year job faster. I've said before that I think the "seniority" number deal is a marketing gimmick, and I stick to that, especially as fast as FOs move here at PCL. Doesn't affect your upgrade. If you get hired with 300 hours, you won't have the required hours to upgrade to CA when the rest of your class does (unless they all had 300 hours, too). Sure, you'll be back with them when you eventually do upgrade, but that'll be another year or so of FO wages and loan payments.
What I think is that you just put words in a lot of guys mouths. We've had this discussion before in other threads, and a lot of us (myself included) have stated it's not the QUANTITY but the QUALITY of hours. Even Don has said he'd be cool with a sub-1000 hour pilot in that spot if he had the right experience. There are some that say anyone under 2500 hours doesn't belong in a jet, but I don't agree with them.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Stephen... Seniority is far from a marketing gimmick... sure it's used to sell flight school programs... but it's a real "Fact of Life" in our current 121 aviation world. To me... it's similar to a Fast Food restaurant using a slogan saying... "Hey... ya gotta eat!". It's true... but that doesn't mean you "gotta" eat at THAT restaurant. 
Also... Folks on here make it sound like they don't understand why anyone would want to spend money for a $20k/yr job. That's just leaving out 90% of the story. A $20k/yr job would be Assistant Manager, CFI, Teacher, Administrative Assistant, and the like... jobs that start at $20k... and pretty much stay there with the standard 1%-3% cost of living and merit increases each year.
A $20/k a year job in the 121 field means that within in 12 months there is typically a "significant" increase in pay... and a defined period of time that increase can double with an upgrade... all the while building PIC Turbine to move on to a potentially bigger and better 121 job that ultimately pays even more. Of course that increase after one year comes with "seniority", as does that upgrade.
Remember... just because PCL is moving guys up the seniority line right now... doesn't mean it can't or won't stop with the class before your upgrade. 40-50 numbers can easily be the difference in upgrade or no upgrade and furlough or no furlough... and that, in turn, can have long term financial and personal effects to those a bit lower in "seniority".
I'll agree with you in that when it's all good in the industry and airlines are upgrading like crazy and people are moving on the the Majors... then a few numbers don't make "that" much of a difference... but I don't think we are there just yet. Things change entirely too quickly... especially at our level here at the regionals.
Bob
Also... Folks on here make it sound like they don't understand why anyone would want to spend money for a $20k/yr job. That's just leaving out 90% of the story. A $20k/yr job would be Assistant Manager, CFI, Teacher, Administrative Assistant, and the like... jobs that start at $20k... and pretty much stay there with the standard 1%-3% cost of living and merit increases each year.
A $20/k a year job in the 121 field means that within in 12 months there is typically a "significant" increase in pay... and a defined period of time that increase can double with an upgrade... all the while building PIC Turbine to move on to a potentially bigger and better 121 job that ultimately pays even more. Of course that increase after one year comes with "seniority", as does that upgrade.
Remember... just because PCL is moving guys up the seniority line right now... doesn't mean it can't or won't stop with the class before your upgrade. 40-50 numbers can easily be the difference in upgrade or no upgrade and furlough or no furlough... and that, in turn, can have long term financial and personal effects to those a bit lower in "seniority".
I'll agree with you in that when it's all good in the industry and airlines are upgrading like crazy and people are moving on the the Majors... then a few numbers don't make "that" much of a difference... but I don't think we are there just yet. Things change entirely too quickly... especially at our level here at the regionals.
Bob
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I understand, you are talking about PACE program type people. Yes, that seems like paying for shortcut to get into the cockpit at much lower time, 300hr range. Its just a crazy issue in the world of aviation right now that will be hotly contested topic for years lol. Right now I just believe that instructing at ATP will give me the experience I need for the airlines in the shortest amount of time. Besides gotta love getting paid for a WHOLE LOT of Multi-engine PIC time!
19k a year job? I thought that was just the first year?
According to airlinepilotcentral.com you guys at Pinnacle get:
(based on 75 guarantee)
1st year-19k
2nd year-21,600k
3rd year-27k
4th year-30k
1st year capt-50k! (Looks like a definite pay decrease when you move on the majors for the first year)
How long is upgrade?
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Stephen... Holy crap! Is that right? You guys need a new contract like... yesterday!
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
Not quite.
Is that what they are teaching at SOSU?
IOE is to ensure that you follow company checklists/SOPs and to familiarize you with the routes. It is NOT for giving you flight instruction and hand holding until you "get it."
Correct.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Not just PACE guys, but the guys coming out of ATP after just doing the career program + CRJ transition. Trust me on this, even with only about 100 hours dual given, you're still "figuring out" the instruction thing. There are gonna be gaps in any training program, that's why it's up to the individual to fill in those gaps. I just don't feel confident that the gaps can be filled in with an extra 100 or 200 hours.
Upgrade (right now) is about a two to three year deal....IF you have the hours. You need 3000TT to upgrade, so if someone comes in with 500 hours, they're looking at another 6 months at LEAST. This is assuming things continue as they have been.
If you base that on min guarantee, then yeah. Those numbers are right. Which is why we're fighting to get our new contract signed yesterday. Management's stonewalling us right now, and we're on hold until the NMB steps in. It might get worse before it gets better. If those guys that just got hired here DID take out loans, I feel for them. I'm scratching by, and I didn't borrow a fraction of the ATP's program costs. Getting that job fast doesn't help a whole lot if you're credit gets torpedoed while still a first year FO....
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Your making more sense now that you tell me that PCL requires 3000TT to upgrade... didn't realize that. XJT just has normal ATP mins. Good luck on your contract negotiations! Sincerely...
Bob
Bob
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Good point, if you are talking about a pilot fresh out of Multi-rating with no CFI background and just a CRJ course that is understandable. I can understand your point. My question is, why do you think airlines are after these kinds of pilots? My guess would be they are cheaper in the long run because they will be FO for a while lol.
As far as QOL, things look much better when you become captain! 2-3yrs before you start making decent money is not great, but hey it could be worse. Of course I am not going through those 2-3yrs yet like you are so what do you think? Oh, and how many hrs do you guys actually work? My cousin at Mesa says he likes to pick up extra trips to make alittle more money, at least when he was an FO. 2yrs then CA, now making 47k minimum.
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that there are captains or potentially could be captains at Express Jet with under 2000 hours?
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Yep... Clear the skies!
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
Yep... Clear the skies!
That's crazy. How ridiculous. Well, that's a good reminder for me to stay off of Express Jet, although I'm sure many of the regionals operate the same way. Hmmmm.... the right seat of a regional jet used as an initial turbine aircraft training ground....yeah, I'll pass thanks.:insane:
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Hmmm... where else "should" they get "initial turbine aircraft training"? Send everyone to the 135 Caravan Ops route?
Of course there's the Military... but that's not a choice or even an option for every aviator out there.
Bob
Of course there's the Military... but that's not a choice or even an option for every aviator out there.
Bob
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
The short answer....Yes. (Except they aren't qualified for that, so they get to fly pax in a jet) Brilliant.
I remember when regionals required 3000TT to fly right seat in a BE99 or J31, and that was most people's first turbine.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
"Regional airlines are seen as a great training ground for those people who want to move on to the larger aircraft," he said. "The major airlines are not hiring - they're furloughing or laying off. The regionals are growing."http://www.airportbusiness.com/article/article.jsp?id=7100&siteSection=3
"Another young and inexperienced pilot here, as well at 41 years of age and about 10,000 hrs of experience. I have seen very sharp young pilots with around 1000 hours who are very good and I have seen alot of higher time FOs who I had to babysit."http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2006/03/regional_carrie.html
the worst airline disasters in history were flown by 6000-12000 hr pilots.....100% of the ntsb reports and case studies i've read find that the pilots have tons of hours and even tons of hours in type...what gives? i say the 300-3000 hr guys are maybe safer, more safety conscioushttp://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2006/03/regional_carrie.html
Myth 3: Pilots of these planes are young and inexperienced.
Truth: Some are, some aren't, and experience here is a relative thing. Often enough it's industry economics -- hiring trends and rates of attrition -- that determine aggregate experience levels. In any case, all crews are trained to the same high standards, and logbook totals aren't always a good indicator of skills. In the meantime, many pilots on furlough status from the struggling mainliners have found themselves biting the bullet at this or that Connection, Eagle, Airlink or Express. (Complex and sophisticated as their machines tend to be, the average RJ pilot's salary starts at around $20,000 per year and sometimes less.)http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/col/smith/2005/02/25/askthepilot125/index.html
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I would argue that getting furloughed would probably be better in the long run vs. getting put back on reserve (at our payrates anyway)
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