Paying your dues???

Apophis said:
I’m sorry, but you’re proving my point.


There is no one singular, superior way to gain experience. Stop it.
Click to expand...

I've been flying for 25 years and I'm still getting schooled by this business. Every new type of aircraft or type of operation has put me right back in the "student pilot" category. To this day, there are a multitude of skills that some pilots take for granted (formation flying for example) that I have no clue how to do properly. Learning to fly helicopters tossed all of my airplane skills out the window, and I'm still nowhere near proficient. The first jet I flew was an eye opener even with many years flying freight in and out of DFW.

However, I'll firmly stand behind the position that the period where I went from "student of flying" to "pilot in command" happened in my first few months teaching. Teaching students forced me to master the areas and subjects that I barely understood when I got my CFI. I find it shocking how little I knew (and how much of that was wrong) when I first started teaching.

There is no one singular superior way to gain experience. But instructing has the fewest drawbacks for the most people. Every pilot I know who went an alternate route took longer and had a tougher road.

jtrain609 said:
The USAF should get rid of FAIP's too, because it's clearly unsafe.
Click to expand...

A good training program has a healthy mix of young instructors who know the program well because they just graduated it, and a seasoning of "old pros" who understand what's really important out in the real world. The military does this reasonably well, and some civilian schools do too.
 
USMCmech said:
I've been flying for 25 years and I'm still getting schooled by this business. Every new type of aircraft or type of operation has put me right back in the "student pilot" category. To this day, there are a multitude of skills that some pilots take for granted (formation flying for example) that I have no clue how to do properly. Learning to fly helicopters tossed all of my airplane skills out the window, and I'm still nowhere near proficient. The first jet I flew was an eye opener even with many years flying freight in and out of DFW.

However, I'll firmly stand behind the position that the period where I went from "student of flying" to "pilot in command" happened in my first few months teaching. Teaching students forced me to master the areas and subjects that I barely understood when I got my CFI. I find it shocking how little I knew (and how much of that was wrong) when I first started teaching.

There is no one singular superior way to gain experience. But instructing has the fewest drawbacks for the most people. Every pilot I know who went an alternate route took longer and had a tougher road.



A good training program has a healthy mix of young instructors who know the program well because they just graduated it, and a seasoning of "old pros" who understand what's really important out in the real world. The military does this reasonably well, and some civilian schools do too.
Click to expand...

Agree to disagree then.

Additionally, I never used the CFI certificate. I have never had trouble in any professional training program.

Just stop it already. You’re clearly arguing from the exact old school perspective I just called out several posts ago.

If your heart isn’t in teaching, you SHOULD NOT be a CFI. How hard is this for you old schoolers to understand? You keep arguing this point that “It worked for me, it must work for everyone.”

That isn’t true, much as you may wish it to be so.
 
Apophis said:
Agree to disagree then.
Click to expand...

To which point?

That I and many others developed many important "soft skills" and mastered the fundamentals by teaching?

That, everyone I know who took an alternate route from instructing took longer to get to a stable job?

Just stop it already. You’re clearly arguing from the exact old school perspective I just called out several posts ago.
Click to expand...

Ok, so what's the alternative?

And given there is zero incentive to change the current admittedly broken system, how to we create some.



No one is arguing that CFI to build experience model doesn't have many serious flaws. Nor am I arguing that if you really don't want to teach, you should anyway because "you have to pay your dues".

I have a former student who towed banners while living out of his car and his wife and kids were taken in by relatives. He networked himself into a Kingair Sic gig, then PIC, then Republic and now he's flying heavies for Omni 5 years later. He made it work, but it was rough. He paid his dues.

If Max wants to fly right seat in a 208 for less than minimum wage (6/hr equilivant) then he should go for it. Build your time and GTFO.
 
USMCmech said:
To which point?

That I and many others developed many important "soft skills" and mastered the fundamentals by teaching?

That, everyone I know who took an alternate route from instructing took longer to get to a stable job?



Ok, so what's the alternative?

And given there is zero incentive to change the current admittedly broken system, how to we create some.



No one is arguing that CFI to build experience model doesn't have many serious flaws. Nor am I arguing that if you really don't want to teach, you should anyway because "you have to pay your dues".

I have a former student who towed banners while living out of his car and his wife and kids were taken in by relatives. He networked himself into a Kingair Sic gig, then PIC, then Republic and now he's flying heavies for Omni 5 years later. He made it work, but it was rough. He paid his dues.
Click to expand...

Youre subtlety using your biases to imply that getting your CFI will somehow automatically make you a better aviator and make things easier than a person who hasn’t.

I flew with a captain last week who, after complaining to me several times about a couple of F/Os at my company who are pretty weak because they never got their CFI(I agree, they are weak), then proceeded to try and line up on the wrong parallel runway on a visual two nights in a row. I had a couple of choice comments for him after that.

I’m sorry, but being a CFI doesn’t necesssrily make anything easier in your career vice any other means of time building. There are PLENTY of garbage CFIs who are now garbage captains.

So stop feeding this narrative that being a CFI makes things easier when you get to an airline. They aren’t even close to the same type of flying.
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
Midland's a small town, what makes the cost of living so expensive? Oil?
Click to expand...
Yep... and it’s in the middle of nowhere so people are leery at the idea of building apartment complexes in case the oil industry goes bust (again).

I enjoyed my time there and frankly had I not already had the taste of turbine flying I would’ve hung my hat there for a while. The weather is pretty good except for the 10 times a year when a nasty ass storm hits.
My two cents; if you have the chance Max go fly for this outfit. You’ll learn to deal with fatigue, fuel vs time management, low level experience, supreme multitasking, and super duper VFR see and avoid skills.
 
USMCmech said:
I've spent over two decades complaining that a college degree is pointless in this industry, and is even highly overrated as a requirement for military officers. I stand firmly by this position, some of the dumbest people I've met have graduate degrees. However, what if I had just done the hard work and gone to school when I was a young stupid kid?

You will learn more in your first 100 hours of dual given than any other point in your career.


For the record, I agree that using CFIs to build time is a broken system. It would be far better to go the European route and have CFI be a high pay/high prestige job that you get AFTER you have a bunch of experience. However, it's what we have to work with.
Click to expand...

Agree on all of this. I loved instructing and though unrealistic, if I could make 121 captain money to instruct I’d be happy to do it.
 
Apophis said:
I’m sorry, but being a CFI doesn’t necesssrily make anything easier in your career vice any other means of time building. There are PLENTY of garbage CFIs who are now garbage captains.

So stop feeding this narrative that being a CFI makes things easier when you get to an airline. They aren’t even close to the same type of flying.
Click to expand...

No argument here.

I know lots of CFIs who are terrible teachers, pilots, or human beings (sometimes all three at once). If anything, a pilots natural talent has an inverse relationship to their skill at teaching. One of the most talented pilots I know is actually a terrible teacher. Let's be honest, despite the horror stories about CFI initial check rides, the bar for becoming a CFI is ridiculously low. The FAA teaching materials are actually pretty piss poor (the NRA firearm instructor courses are much better).

And I fully agree that teaching in Cessnas had at best a negligible boost when coming to the airlines as a new FO. The overall experience of flying for a healthy number of hours does, but there are many ways to get that.
 
USMCmech said:
No argument here.

I know lots of CFIs who are terrible teachers, pilots, or human beings (sometimes all three at once). If anything, a pilots natural talent has an inverse relationship to their skill at teaching. One of the most talented pilots I know is actually a terrible teacher. Let's be honest, despite the horror stories about CFI initial check rides, the bar for becoming a CFI is ridiculously low. The FAA teaching materials are actually pretty piss poor (the NRA firearm instructor courses are much better).

And I fully agree that teaching in Cessnas had at best a negligible boost when coming to the airlines as a new FO. The overall experience of flying for a healthy number of hours does, but there are many ways to get that.
Click to expand...

Cool. I agree with more of you than I originally thought.

And even if I didn’t, that’s okay. There are so many different ways to reach an end in this industry.
 
Back to the original topic.

The plusses for teaching as a means to build time and experience
  • There is a large infrastructure in place to teach new pilots here in the USA.
  • You build the soft skills of CRM, ADM, ect. while working with students.
  • The rating is relatively inexpensive, and even a busting this check ride is almost irrelevant.
  • You will be teaching for a large part of your career even in the airlines, so might as well get started now.
  • The pay is marginally better, and there are more opportunities to work spread out over the US.

The minuses
  • Some people just don't like to teach or aren't good at it.
  • Liability of being responsible for students
  • Expense of another certificate
  • Low pay and sometimes seasonal demand can vary wildly.
  • You can become a fair weather flyer who never ventures outside of your local bubble.


Yes CFI is the most common way to build time, but it's not for everyone. If you can make an alternative path work for you, then great.
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
Midland's a small town, what makes the cost of living so expensive? Oil?
Click to expand...

OK, pet peeve of mine.

Midland/Odessa is a metro area of 250,000 people. They have a baseball team, two malls, several movie theaters, a dozen grocery stores, four high schools, ect. This is not a "small town". It's not LA, but it's not Marbury either. It's actually a medium sized city stuck in the middle of nowhere.

A "small town" has less than 10,000 people, one grocery store, minimal entertainment options, a volunteer fire department, and it's high school may be combined with the rest of the county.

Small suburbs who have been swallowed up by the larger metro area don't count as small towns either. Keller TX where I live was a small town until Ft Worth slowly absorbed it and now it's just part of FW in everything but name.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Agree on all of this. I loved instructing and though unrealistic, if I could make 121 captain money to instruct I’d be happy to do it.
Click to expand...
See that’s the point, we need to incentivize instructing for people who really love it and gain value from it, those of us who can make the mature decision and realize it’s not for us don’t need to drag down that particular calling. The time between your primary training flying a 172 and your first airline gig should be the most formative. How many CFI’s here went from a 172 or a Seminole to the right seat of a CRJ? Alternatively, while my road was rockier and less direct, I had time in King Airs, Citations, Twin Otters, and Caravans dropping jumpers, and even solo ferry stuff having to tell the owner I’m stuck somewhere because I had to make a PIC call as a 400 hr guy regarding weather. One is not better than the other, so let’s stop pretending instructing is the only way.
 
Apophis said:
I had no idea what a four segment climb was, nor the definition of things like balanced field and clear way/stopway etc.
Click to expand...

I'd say your CFI-I failed you then. This material should've been covered during instrument training. Generally not applicable to the ultra-high performance flying of a C172 with some Garmin components in it, but the foundation is there for when you start operating part 25 aircraft. The same applies to Class A airspace - you'll never get there in the All ATPs C172, but it is part of the curriculum for a reason.
 
CFI A&P said:
I'd say your CFI-I failed you then. This material should've been covered during instrument training. Generally not applicable to the ultra-high performance flying of a C172 with some Garmin components in it, but the foundation is there for when you start operating part 25 aircraft.
Click to expand...

Lol dude, exactly. It wasn’t covered that well. Well enough to pass but how much of that are you going to care about until you actually experience it? You sure as hell aren’t going to retain that knowledge until it’s actually being used on a semi regular basis.

Instrument is the only checkride I have failed. But not for the reasons you mention (partial panel NDB approach).
 
Knowing how to interact with other humans is way more important than knowing the details of a four segment climb. This is something that's taught in training at an airline, and is covered briefly because it doesn't matter as much as y'all seem to think it does.

CRM, on the other hand, and being able to monitor effectively and inform the pilot flying that something is going sideways in a way that allows them to hear you is absolutely critical to crewed operations.

You don't learn these skills while boring holes in the sky doing traffic watch, or flying skydivers, or doing aerial survey; you learn these skills while flight instructing. And you WILL be tested on these skills during an interview at any airline, and a few airlines WILL bounce you out during the psych testing if they decide you can't effectively interact with other people.

And at that point, all those cool pilot skills, and all those cool nunchuck skills will do nothing for your career.
 
USMCmech said:
OK, pet peeve of mine.

Midland/Odessa is a metro area of 250,000 people. They have a baseball team, two malls, several movie theaters, a dozen grocery stores, four high schools, ect. This is not a "small town". It's not LA, but it's not Marbury either. It's actually a medium sized city stuck in the middle of nowhere.

A "small town" has less than 10,000 people, one grocery store, minimal entertainment options, a volunteer fire department, and it's high school may be combined with the rest of the county.

Small suburbs who have been swallowed up by the larger metro area don't count as small towns either. Keller TX where I live was a small town until Ft Worth slowly absorbed it and now it's just part of FW in everything but name.
Click to expand...
Yup I’m in Carrollton/Plano and even though my address has a city name on it. It’s just a giant mesh of suburbs (Carrollton, Plano, Farmers Branch, Richardson, Frisco, Allen, and McKinney) about one million residents and growing.
 
jtrain609 said:
Knowing how to interact with other humans is way more important than knowing the details of a four segment climb. This is something that's taught in training at an airline, and is covered briefly because it doesn't matter as much as y'all seem to think it does.

CRM, on the other hand, and being able to monitor effectively and inform the pilot flying that something is going sideways in a way that allows them to hear you is absolutely critical to crewed operations.

You don't learn these skills while boring holes in the sky doing traffic watch, or flying skydivers, or doing aerial survey; you learn these skills while flight instructing. And you WILL be tested on these skills during an interview at any airline, and a few airlines WILL bounce you out during the psych testing if they decide you can't effectively interact with other people.

And at that point, all those cool pilot skills, and all those cool nunchuck skills will do nothing for your career.
Click to expand...

Yep, only CFIs have the skills you mention. Nobody else at all (nice straw man by the way).

You’re full of it. Just like everyone else who continues to spout this nonsense about the CFI certificate.

I think it comes down to a lot of CFIs on this forum being angry that others haven’t built their time at a scummy flight school, and perceive anybody who finds a different way to get their hours as some kind of a threat. It’s honestly pathetic but as with many other things in aviation, old ways of thinking can take a long time to change.
 
Apophis said:
Yep, only CFIs have the skills you mention. Nobody else at all (nice straw man by the way).

You’re full of it. Just like everyone else who continues to spout this nonsense about the CFI certificate.

I think it comes down to a lot of CFIs on this forum being angry that others haven’t built their time at a scummy flight school, and perceive anybody who finds a different way to get their hours as some kind of a threat. It’s honestly pathetic but as with many other things in aviation, old ways of thinking can take a long time to change.
Click to expand...

Calmer than you are.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top