sorrygottarunway
Well-Known Member
were we supposed to have CFI insurance when we were instructing?
Paying your dues???
- Thread starter Maximilian_Jenius
- Start date
were we supposed to have CFI insurance when we were instructing?
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
It wouldn't hurt. I've been considering it. Age makes cowards of us all and I really don't want an incident to wipe out the nest eggs that the missus and I have been carefully trying to build.
I like teaching. I wish more people liked to teach. I've made some good friends through teaching, and I've also met people that I never would have met otherwise.
The ones who don't like teaching....it shows. It also seems to be a self-correcting problem as soon as their students figure out that it's perfectly okay to change instructors.
I've reached a number in my logbook and body of work as a pilot where I'm employable for flying jobs that aren't survey (though I think that would be fun) or teaching. I'm exploring things.
Still like teaching, though.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Can confirm, we learned no such thing in instrument training at the Skywest cadet academy.
ozziecat35
4 out of 5 great lakes prefer Michigan.
You realize how pompous & arrogant this makes you sound right? Notice those of us saying you don’t have to be a CFI aren’t saying it’s better, just different, while a large majority of the CFI or die crowd are holding onto some ridiculous notion that it’s the only right way.
Bamaaviator
Well-Known Member
I think getting the CFI does set a very strong foundation of knowledge and skills for the rest of someone’s flying career, even if they don’t get enough experience initially, being exposed to the very things they WILL do down the line in their careers, i.e., learning how turbine engines and systems work, high speed aerodynamics, operating IFR “in the system,” and flying SID’s/STARS, learning ATC comms at class b airports and getting complex clearances with possible reroutes due to wx delays, traffic, making wx decisions, etc, you get the point. They generally pick up on that stuff really quickly. They’re used to absorbing and processing large amounts of information.
Most of the CFI’s coming into the 121 arena do fairly well adapting to it. Many airline instructors will tell you that. What you won’t hear them say is there are more pass rates for NON instructors than for instructors. Because they just don’t see that. I see this with military students that I teach as well. I teach the fixed wing transition course for students that had prior helicopter only time. The ones who had an instructor background have much more depth of knowledge and are able to learn things better, and pick up on things quicker. They can learn from their mistakes better, and correct themselves better the next time around than the non instructors do. They critique themselves better, and can talk themselves through it more efficiently and confidently. They’re familiar with defense mechanisms and how they can be a major detriment to their learning if they utilize one. The non instructors I’ve had often times have many weak points they can’t seem to get past without A LOT of extra training/coaching, and sometimes an attitude adjustment.
All too often when I hear about someone getting an attitude with their instructor at the airlines, and eventually “let go/asked to resign,” I do little asking around about their background, and it almost always comes up that they were never a CFI. I have also heard from others, and can confirm myself from my own experiences, that a lot of the non-CFI types generally have more of an attitude problem than CFI’s. Granted, that doesn’t mean there aren’t CFI’s out there who may have some really nasty attitudes, because there are. Regarding the non instructors as a GROUP, i will say that I have noticed it is MUCH more difficult to work with someone who was never an instructor before.
CFI’s have better pass rates. Now, yes, that is not always the case. The CFI who never had any turbine time/previous 135/military time, or any kind of exposure to wx before, and making decisions regarding the wx,may find the 121 school house to be quite a firehose that they’re not quite prepared for yet, and feel extremely overwhelmed where they either quit training, or are washed out. It happens. But I think they can handle the stress a little more easily, and don’t buckle under the stress as easily.
It’s very easy to make generalizations here. As I’ve pointed out, there are some sharp pilots out there who never instructed, and there are some really bad instructors. The subject of lousy instructors is another topic for a different day. But I do not think the whole “instructing is antiquated garbage” holds much water when you really look at things objectively.
Apophis
Resident Iconoclast
Your last paragraph nailed it and I agree.
I don’t think CFI’ing is antiquated garbage. I specifically said the mindset that you are somehow inferior or didn’t pay your dues if you didn’t build time being a CFI is antiquated.
There are many ways to reach the same destination.
sorrygottarunway
Well-Known Member
I feel like this is how flight schools in Europe do it. Most of the CFIs over there are career guys (impression I got) or- retired pro pilots.
For CFI I learned such a variety of skills-including customer/interpersonal stuff, which can be a "line" that you notice since your student is both your pupil as well as a customer. But it was a low-level part 91 ad-hoc type job that got me into the IFR "system" and thinking about performance, weather, planning, fuel, so either way you go, it will be another "step" in the right direction, but not the whole answer. Hell, I will be upgrading in a transport category jet here very soon and won't have all the answers, and will be learning much.
KLB
Well-Known Member
*I'm not saying it's the only way. But it's the easiest and has a lot of upside.
Another thing, Max is no spring chicken. He needs to get this thing in gear a get on the peddle. He doesn't have time to wait.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
One of my favorite lines from Apollo 13 to was when Jim Swigert pointed out that they were coming in too fast. Fred Haise gets all fussy and says “how did you figure that out!?!?”
“I can add”
I can look around and see the background of the people around me over a multi-decade career. From the civilian side, the vast majority CFIed at some point.
Now if you want to shake your fist at the aviation Gods and say “give me justice”, go ahead, but it appears they ain’t listening.
Or you can do what is necessary to maximize your chances for success.
Your choice.
Bamaaviator
Well-Known Member
To get deeper into this subject, I honestly think being a CFI is more a matter of convenience for most aspiring commercial pilots. I originally didn’t want to instruct, I didn’t think I’d be very great at it. But I also was hesitant to move a thousand miles or greater to some city or town that my wife and I knew little to nothing about, for a job that more than likely may not even pay peanuts. Not to mention the moving expenses we would incur too. That didn’t sound very appealing, and didn’t want to leave the security of having family and friends so close. So I decided to bite the bullet, and hunker down and start knocking out some lesson plans and told myself I’ll “see how it goes.” I eventually discovered that I really, really like teaching. I also discovered that I still liked teaching once I ‘hit the line’ at a pretty busy school dealing with all types of students, even though they exhaust the hell out of you sometimes. I still loved helping others, but I learned that I may grow to absolutely hate aviation because of who I was working for at the time. It was miserable experience. Had the worst boss ever. True scumbag. Never previously dealt with things that I had dealt with before at my first CFI job. But my happiness and satisfaction for me helping my students never died. It grew stronger over time. I could never picture myself enjoying being an instructor. 5 years before that I was set on going a different path other than teaching. I would have thought someone was crazy if they told me “in the spring of 2017 you will be a flight instructor.” I would have told them to GTFOH! Lol
I’m not saying all this to sway the OP or anyone else to “CFI or die.” If someone absolutely, does not want to teach, by all means, don’t do it. There are other ways. But I think you will have to sacrifice a lot more to do that, especially financially. I think that if someone has the means to pick up everything and move somewhere for a flying job that may not pay well, but they’re qualified for it, and it’s a way for them to advance their career, then they should go for it. But I also think that if they can maybe stay put, or stay ‘local’ and instruct at their local airport, and they think it may be worth giving the CFI training a try, I think they should do that too. I say to the OP give it a go with a ‘trial run’ of doing at least 3-4 ground lessons with a CFI at a local school. Pitch a few lessons to them like they’re your student, and if you begin to like it, keep going. But if you find you aren’t enjoying it at all, and don’t think it’s in the cards for you, then by all means don’t do it.
I think we both agree with each other. I also forgot to mention that I think freight pilots gain a lot of valuable skills that you just can’t get from instructing. I wanted to do part 135 freight after I built up my time, but life happened and the wife and I had another kid. So I chose to forgo the option to move several states away and uproot the family. Because more than likely it was going to boil down to working on the backside of the clock while living in a town that we may have ended up hating for all we knew. We may have ended up liking it, who knows. But it was a risk we weren’t willing to take givin the fact we had a baby on the way. It just didn’t sound like a good option at the time for ME. I think most people choose to instruct because it’s more of a convenient way to build hours while staying ‘local’ (for the most part), even though they may not necessarily enjoy instructing a ton.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
All this. And while I think there are awesome ways to gain experience as a low time commercial pilot outside of instructing...teaching something is the best/quickest/easiest (not the only!) way to get really proficient at something. And that applies to the fields I’ve worked in outside of aviation as well.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
What's the path to PIC with them? Racking up SIC hours for six months then moving to PIC seems like a reasonable strategy if possible.
swakid8
Well-Known Member
My vote would be to go the CFI route and I am going to throw a different reason out why? Networking......
Depending on the school (not pilot mills), instructing can lead to some good networking opportunities that that can help land a better time-building gig. How many times have folks heard of instructors meeting someone at their school or while they out on a flight study and chatted with someone at a FBO next thing you know, that someone is looking for a FO for their private jet, just looking for pilot in general.
Ive heard so many stories of guys/gals having good networking opportunities while instructing. I even had some opportunities that came up that allowed me to fly some rich guys daughter around his Baron which that experience also opened up more doors in the local area to build multi-time. So my vote, suck it up, go the CFI route, and find a good school teach at and be ready to network in that process. Opportunities will be there for it.
Depending on the school (not pilot mills), instructing can lead to some good networking opportunities that that can help land a better time-building gig. How many times have folks heard of instructors meeting someone at their school or while they out on a flight study and chatted with someone at a FBO next thing you know, that someone is looking for a FO for their private jet, just looking for pilot in general.
Ive heard so many stories of guys/gals having good networking opportunities while instructing. I even had some opportunities that came up that allowed me to fly some rich guys daughter around his Baron which that experience also opened up more doors in the local area to build multi-time. So my vote, suck it up, go the CFI route, and find a good school teach at and be ready to network in that process. Opportunities will be there for it.
Avalon781ML
Well-Known Member
It’s probably changed quite a bit... but if I remember correctly it was a week or two of flying with a normal line guy to see the operation and get a general feel for the various fields... then it was a week or two with the CP or training guy flying the fields you’d be assigned. After that you were on your own... I thought it was thorough enough and I was never questioned when I made a decision that wasn’t the popular one.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Probably the number one reason why flight instructing doesn't interest me. That and conflict with my current working schedule. I need to build hours fast! Not getting any younger. Can you build hours fast as a CFI, yes some places. Typically pilot mills especially here in PHX, and not always mom and pop shops.
Talked to some people online that fly or flew of Southern Airways Exp. They say that the $12 is only for six months and then it doubles and you typically upgrade. The overwhelming feeling from most of the people in the FB group was that 57 is the min guarantee. But typically people are flying 100-120 hours a month.
I'm really look at Cape Air, Boutique, Grand Canton tour pilots here in AZ. Southern Air Ex. Air Cargo Carriers, Freight Runners, Alpine Air, Air Cargo Carriers. Flight Instructing. Everything is on the table to get to be able to get 1500 as fast as possible and where I want and need to be after that.
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JDean3204
Well-Known Member
If I listened to none of the advice I got on here, I wouldn’t be where I’m at now. If I listened to all the advice I got on here, I wouldn’t be where I’m at now. Not saying I’m anywhere special, but in a better place than if I put all or nothing on thread advice. Hope that makes sense, you know what’s best for you moving forward and are smart enough to follow your reasoning along with the reasoning of those you trust.
If you really don’t think investing even more money to be a CFI isn’t in your best interest, who cares what a couple of other users think makes a good captain down the road. They don’t know your life situation, your financial situation nor the time you have planned to make it to steps 1, 2 and 3 based on the realities of life that you face. It sounds like you have great experience in a much more complex field than trying not to bend metal, so just do you my friend
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Old Pete
Cockpit Authoritarian
Depends
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
CFIT99
I'm probably commenting ironically...
this is kind of comical...this argument DOESN'T exist anywhere but in this tiny echo chamber. It NEVER comes up in flight deck conversation that getting a CFI is a "rite of passage". I have my CFI but barely used (~50 hours dual given), but I did teach about 500 hours of ground school. Most of the time when other pilots find out I didn't build time by instructing they tell me how lucky I was that I didn't have to....and I agree!
If it were up to me, I'd say that all pilots have to fly Single pilot 135 night freight before moving on to a crew environment...BUT no one asked me!
....for one final point...NOT getting your CFI only does one thing, it does limit time building opportunities.
*drinks room temp truly*
If it were up to me, I'd say that all pilots have to fly Single pilot 135 night freight before moving on to a crew environment...BUT no one asked me!
....for one final point...NOT getting your CFI only does one thing, it does limit time building opportunities.
*drinks room temp truly*
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
The reality is the goal should be to become a well rounded pilot. Look at yourself critically and go seek out the experience that you’re lacking. I think in Emu’s ideal world the natural progression should be initial training, instruct, then go find a job like Airnet used to be.
I’m obviously firmly in the instructing is the path of least resistance club, but there definitely are experiences that you don’t get beating up the pattern with a student. That said, my experience at my regional was that the training department and airline in general was very equipped to take someone from an instructing background and help them succeed. That’s good because there are a whole lot less “time building” jobs out there than there used to be.
I’m obviously firmly in the instructing is the path of least resistance club, but there definitely are experiences that you don’t get beating up the pattern with a student. That said, my experience at my regional was that the training department and airline in general was very equipped to take someone from an instructing background and help them succeed. That’s good because there are a whole lot less “time building” jobs out there than there used to be.