Paying your dues???

[Screaming_Emu]

Eh, I maintain if someone doesn't "want" to instruct or feels they wouldn't be a good CFI, and can find a way to get the hours another way, more power to them. There seems to be this mentality that if you didn't instruct, you're somehow "less than" as a pilot, which is bull poo. Different strokes at the end of the day though, takes all kinds of ingredients to bake a cake.

To me it’s more that building hours every way other than instructing seems to take longer and often involves multiple employers rather than sucking it up and doing something a little less than ideal for an expedited path.

 

[Hiboglossi]

To me it’s more that building hours every way other than instructing seems to take longer and often involves multiple employers rather than sucking it up and doing something a little less than ideal for an expedited path.

The best way I've heard it described is that instructing is the most accessible way to build time.

Of course, it takes time and money to get a Flight Instructor Certificate in the first place. That's why I think a good strategy for people with a fresh commercial certificate is to apply for jobs like aerial survey, and start working on their CFI if it's at all feasible in case that doesn't pan out. Which it often doesn't since there's so much competition for non-CFI low time jobs, even when the economy is good.

I also think there's some value to not getting a CFI certificate since the checkride is one of the most commonly failed, and every checkride is an opportunity to fail and end up with an indelible mark of Cain on your record. And as someone above pointed out, people responsible for hiring don't care about regional airline politics or, probably, slapfights over which way to build time is the best. But one thing they care very strongly about is Training Failures.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I also think there's some value to not getting a CFI certificate since the checkride is one of the most commonly failed, and every checkride is an opportunity to fail and end up with an indelible mark of Cain on your record. And as someone above pointed out, people responsible for hiring don't care about regional airline politics or, probably, slapfights over which way to build time is the best. But one thing they care very strongly about is Training Failures.

Don't be a pilot, and don't take any checkrides - no risk of training failures. Perhaps a better plan is to be as prepared as possible for a CFI checkride, understanding the importance of it. I managed to pass 75% of my CFI checkrides - they aren't impossible, and much is certainly learned in preparing for them.

For what it is worth, a disapproval on an initial CFI ride hasn't kept me from doing anything in aviation yet. Insurance companies really like that CFI certificate -- having it makes insurance both cheaper and easier to get. That also makes you more employable.

 

[KLB]

The best way I've heard it described is that instructing is the most accessible way to build time.

Of course, it takes time and money to get a Flight Instructor Certificate in the first place. That's why I think a good strategy for people with a fresh commercial certificate is to apply for jobs like aerial survey, and start working on their CFI if it's at all feasible in case that doesn't pan out. Which it often doesn't since there's so much competition for non-CFI low time jobs, even when the economy is good.

I also think there's some value to not getting a CFI certificate since the checkride is one of the most commonly failed, and every checkride is an opportunity to fail and end up with an indelible mark of Cain on your record. And as someone above pointed out, people responsible for hiring don't care about regional airline politics or, probably, slapfights over which way to build time is the best. But one thing they care very strongly about is Training Failures.

The liability of failing is a fair point. But as far as cost involved to obtain the certificate? CFI training is 90% self study. It was one of the cheapest training events for me. The best way is to practice teaching to anyone willing to listen to you outside of your lessons.

 

[Skåning]

It is weird that in this biz the newest, least experienced entrants are teaching their peers that are like 6 months behind them.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

It is weird that in this biz the newest, least experienced entrants are teaching their peers that are like 6 months behind them.

How is that different than anything else? Would there be any flight instructors if 20 years experience were required?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The liability of failing is a fair point. But as far as cost involved to obtain the certificate? CFI training is 90% self study. It was one of the cheapest training events for me. The best way is to practice teaching to anyone willing to listen to you outside of your lessons.

“Do you want to get divorced? Because that’s how you get • divorced!”

 

[jtrain609]

It is weird that in this biz the newest, least experienced entrants are teaching their peers that are like 6 months behind them.

And yet it works.

 

[Hiboglossi]

It is weird that in this biz the newest, least experienced entrants are teaching their peers that are like 6 months behind them.

You get what you pay for. If CFIs made more money you'd see more highly experienced CFIs actively instructing. But then flight training would be even more unaffordable than it is now.

 

[mshunter]

$12/hr. That's a hard no for me. The only way it becomes viable is if you're independently wealthy, or it's your second job.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

You get what you pay for. If CFIs made more money you'd see more highly experienced CFIs actively instructing. But then flight training would be even more unaffordable than it is now.

There are quite a few flying clubs out there. The quality of instruction can be really good, and close to free. And those are often very experienced, high time CFIs.

 

[Richman]

Eh, I maintain if someone doesn't "want" to instruct or feels they wouldn't be a good CFI, and can find a way to get the hours another way, more power to them. There seems to be this mentality that if you didn't instruct, you're somehow "less than" as a pilot, which is bull poo. Different strokes at the end of the day though, takes all kinds of ingredients to bake a cake.

This business is chock full of things that people don’t want to do, but have to anyway.

Better to learn that lesson upfront, and at least CFIing gets you some time and pay in the process. Teaching at a decent school, with decent students, planes and MX with pay that makes the rent is hardly one of the more objectionable activities this biz makes you do.

 

[ozziecat35]

This business is chock full of things that people don’t want to do, but have to anyway.

Better to learn that lesson upfront, and at least CFIing gets you some time and pay in the process. Teaching at a decent school, with decent students, planes and MX with pay that makes the rent is hardly one of the more objectionable activities this biz makes you do.

I don’t disagree with any of that...my point is that there is a mentality, and it has been proven just by the responses in this thread, that one HAS to instruct otherwise they’re not the right kind of pilot.

 

[Apophis]

How is that different than anything else? Would there be any flight instructors if 20 years experience were required?

What do you mean though?

I really don’t know what other industries are like, but surely you don’t have brand new say, steel mill workers running the entire floor and teaching the new guys after 6 months on the job?

I’m sorry, but at 300 hours, I didn’t know my ass from my elbows. Having a CFI certificate doesn’t change that fact.

 

[Apophis]

I don’t disagree with any of that...my point is that there is a mentality, and it has been proven just by the responses in this thread, that one HAS to instruct otherwise they’re not the right kind of pilot.

It’s your typical old school, “insider” part of aviation. Just like aviation is slowly no longer becoming an old white person’s game (good, I say!), this is yet another idiotic relic of the past that needs to go.

If you hate teaching, you won’t be a good CFI. If you hate sitting around, bored at FL350 while flying into the same major airports every day, you probably shouldn’t fly at a major.

This really isn’t that difficult. The most vocal supporters of this old line of thinking seem to be guys who got their CFI, taught for a couple years (even though they were miserable), and then happily shake a stick at anybody who they perceive “skips the line” by building time in a different manner.

For effs sake, get over yourselves.

 

[USMCmech]

To me it’s more that building hours every way other than instructing seems to take longer and often involves multiple employers rather than sucking it up and doing something a little less than ideal for an expedited path.

I've spent over two decades complaining that a college degree is pointless in this industry, and is even highly overrated as a requirement for military officers. I stand firmly by this position, some of the dumbest people I've met have graduate degrees. However, what if I had just done the hard work and gone to school when I was a young stupid kid?

You will learn more in your first 100 hours of dual given than any other point in your career.


For the record, I agree that using CFIs to build time is a broken system. It would be far better to go the European route and have CFI be a high pay/high prestige job that you get AFTER you have a bunch of experience. However, it's what we have to work with.

 

[Hiboglossi]

This really isn’t that difficult. The most vocal supporters of this old line of thinking seem to be guys who got their CFI, taught for a couple years (even though they were miserable), and then happily shake a stick at anybody who they perceive “skips the line” by building time in a different manner.

I think a lot of it is just a peeing match over which way to build time is the best. When I did aerial survey many of my co-workers liked to talk about how it was much better experience than instructing, which I think is laughable as it's pretty much the easiest job I've had. It's honestly pathetic, especially when people who have been at the airlines for years still do it.

I generally agree with the statements others have made in this thread, that instructing is excellent experience and good preparation for crew operations. But it's not the way, the truth and the life like people on here claim. Nothing wrong with building time at a different low time job if you can find one, especially if you don't have your Flight Instructor certificate in the first place.

 

[Apophis]

I think a lot of it is just a peeing match over which way to build time is the best. When I did aerial survey many of my co-workers liked to talk about how it was much better experience than instructing, which I think is laughable as it's pretty much the easiest job I've had. It's honestly pathetic, especially when people who have been at the airlines for years still do it.

I generally agree with the statements others have made in this thread, that instructing is excellent experience and good preparation for crew operations. But it's not the way, the truth and the life like people on here claim. Nothing wrong with building time at a different low time job if you can find one, especially if you don't have your Flight Instructor certificate in the first place.

QFT.

The best way to build time is the one that works best for you.

Did you know that almost all of my dual given is in blimps? Pilots who hold a commercial certificate with either a lighter than air airship or gas ballon or balloon with airborne heater also have instructional privileges in said category/class.

There is no LTA CFI certificate.

I got to train a couple new hires before I quit. Was cool but I still hated that job and wouldn’t ever do it again.

 

[Apophis]

I've spent over two decades complaining that a college degree is pointless in this industry, and is even highly overrated as a requirement for military officers. I stand firmly by this position, some of the dumbest people I've met have graduate degrees. However, what if I had just done the hard work and gone to school when I was a young stupid kid?

You will learn more in your first 100 hours of dual given than any other point in your career.


For the record, I agree that using CFIs to build time is a broken system. It would be far better to go the European route and have CFI be a high pay/high prestige job that you get AFTER you have a bunch of experience. However, it's what we have to work with.

I’m sorry, but you’re proving my point.

I actually learned more in the first 100 hours flying my first transport category airplane as well as earning my ATP than at any other point.

I had no idea what a four segment climb was, nor the definition of things like balanced field and clear way/stopway etc.

So please, spare me this antiquated garbage about how there is no greater learning experience than being a CFI.

Im sure there are plenty of people on this very forum willing to tell you how humbling it is the first time they are in a jet, and their mind is 100 miles behind the airplane.

There is no one singular, superior way to gain experience. Stop it.

 

[jtrain609]

I've spent over two decades complaining that a college degree is pointless in this industry, and is even highly overrated as a requirement for military officers. I stand firmly by this position, some of the dumbest people I've met have graduate degrees. However, what if I had just done the hard work and gone to school when I was a young stupid kid?

You will learn more in your first 100 hours of dual given than any other point in your career.


For the record, I agree that using CFIs to build time is a broken system. It would be far better to go the European route and have CFI be a high pay/high prestige job that you get AFTER you have a bunch of experience. However, it's what we have to work with.

The USAF should get rid of FAIP's too, because it's clearly unsafe.