"Paying Your Dues" - Bad for business?
- Thread starter Firebird2XC
- Start date
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Re: "Paying your dues"
I'll agree with Boris as well...
I think I got very lucky when I left Delta Connection Academy. I had been hired and placed into a 3 month pool. During that time I moved back to Georgia and started working for a fairly new (less than 6 months old) flight school. I had to work to get my own students and keep them motivated to fly if I wanted more than "base pay". I was lucky when I got to learn how to write 135 manuals, work on Part 141 certification and learn how to fly a 421 with a current Delta FO and a retired Delta Captain (retired #3 on the list). I worked my all the way up to Assistant Chief Flight Instructor and Manager of Maintenance for air fleet of 13 aircraft. I was working 7 days a week and not much time for anything else, but I learned ALOT about running a business and working with customers.
I got hired at Horizon with just under 1900 hours and 500 multi. I wouldn't even think about an airline job until I felt 100% sure I was up to the task. In my class of 9, I had the most flight time by about 300 hours...which shocked me. Even then, I still had days where I though "am I really ready for this".
Since then, the luck has been running alittle dry...2 furloughs in the past 12 months and not a whole lot to show for the interviews that I've had since.
Still though, I wouldn't trade my experience for anything in the world. I've known I was going to be a pilot since I was 2 years old and it's been one helluva ride.
I'll agree with Boris as well...
I think I got very lucky when I left Delta Connection Academy. I had been hired and placed into a 3 month pool. During that time I moved back to Georgia and started working for a fairly new (less than 6 months old) flight school. I had to work to get my own students and keep them motivated to fly if I wanted more than "base pay". I was lucky when I got to learn how to write 135 manuals, work on Part 141 certification and learn how to fly a 421 with a current Delta FO and a retired Delta Captain (retired #3 on the list). I worked my all the way up to Assistant Chief Flight Instructor and Manager of Maintenance for air fleet of 13 aircraft. I was working 7 days a week and not much time for anything else, but I learned ALOT about running a business and working with customers.
I got hired at Horizon with just under 1900 hours and 500 multi. I wouldn't even think about an airline job until I felt 100% sure I was up to the task. In my class of 9, I had the most flight time by about 300 hours...which shocked me. Even then, I still had days where I though "am I really ready for this".
Since then, the luck has been running alittle dry...2 furloughs in the past 12 months and not a whole lot to show for the interviews that I've had since.
Still though, I wouldn't trade my experience for anything in the world. I've known I was going to be a pilot since I was 2 years old and it's been one helluva ride.
vikingair
Well-Known Member
Re: "Paying your dues"
This was exactly what I was thinking about that caused me to post the question. I never hear someone in Vegas call feeding a slot machine as "paying their dues" but it seems to be the same gamble these days.
What other professions have the same concept as ingrained as aviation? In college I worked at a Vet clinic and became friends with a new Dr they had hired. For him, paying his dues occurred mainly during the extra 4 years in school. After that it was basically having the smaller office and working a few extra Saturdays until the owner offered him a partnership.
Pretty much any job will require working through the ranks, being low man on the totem pole for a while and sucking up the suck more often than not.
I think the phrase should be changed...any suggestions?
This was exactly what I was thinking about that caused me to post the question. I never hear someone in Vegas call feeding a slot machine as "paying their dues" but it seems to be the same gamble these days.
What other professions have the same concept as ingrained as aviation? In college I worked at a Vet clinic and became friends with a new Dr they had hired. For him, paying his dues occurred mainly during the extra 4 years in school. After that it was basically having the smaller office and working a few extra Saturdays until the owner offered him a partnership.
Pretty much any job will require working through the ranks, being low man on the totem pole for a while and sucking up the suck more often than not.
I think the phrase should be changed...any suggestions?
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
Re: "Paying your dues"
Well, would you let an intern at a hospital operate on you? They have a medical degree just like the co-pilot has the certificate. Its called "paying your dues," but really, its a trial by fire.
A medical graduate might have the required training, but no experience. Things are a lot different in real life when the situation demands a resolution immediately, and you cant grab the book to look up the answer, or better yet, there is no answer because its never happened before. Only experience can give you the answer, and unfortunately, i really dont think it comes in the right seat of an RJ having someone else make the decisions for you while you swing gear.
If you cant make it through terrible conditions flying crappy planes without people on board, then what makes you think you deserve to fly with 50 in the back?
Well, would you let an intern at a hospital operate on you? They have a medical degree just like the co-pilot has the certificate. Its called "paying your dues," but really, its a trial by fire.
A medical graduate might have the required training, but no experience. Things are a lot different in real life when the situation demands a resolution immediately, and you cant grab the book to look up the answer, or better yet, there is no answer because its never happened before. Only experience can give you the answer, and unfortunately, i really dont think it comes in the right seat of an RJ having someone else make the decisions for you while you swing gear.
If you cant make it through terrible conditions flying crappy planes without people on board, then what makes you think you deserve to fly with 50 in the back?
Nigel Croker
Well-Known Member
Re: "Paying your dues"
What makes me laugh is the number of people out there who have never been employed under anything but part 91 yet have this self annointed belief that they are the one qualified to judge whether someone has paid his/her dues. Im sure we'll hear from them as this thread progresses....in 3......2.......1........
What makes me laugh is the number of people out there who have never been employed under anything but part 91 yet have this self annointed belief that they are the one qualified to judge whether someone has paid his/her dues. Im sure we'll hear from them as this thread progresses....in 3......2.......1........
FlySooner9
Well-Known Member
Re: "Paying your dues"
im throwing bags and scraping up any flight instruction i can find. Does that count for "paying dues" in the JC world?
im throwing bags and scraping up any flight instruction i can find. Does that count for "paying dues" in the JC world?
Nigel Croker
Well-Known Member
Re: "Paying your dues"
It means the 2% withheld from my paycheck to line the (insert union name here) pockets, and I have "paid my dues" through payroll deduction....
It means the 2% withheld from my paycheck to line the (insert union name here) pockets, and I have "paid my dues" through payroll deduction....
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
Re: "Paying your dues"
Look, im just one person, but i always thought paying dues was the same as gaining experience flying, not working long hours for crap pay.
The whole name of the game is to be able to say "yeah, ive been there, and got myself out of it." Im sorry, but i dont see how sitting ready reserve for 16 months makes you a better pilot.
Look, im just one person, but i always thought paying dues was the same as gaining experience flying, not working long hours for crap pay.
The whole name of the game is to be able to say "yeah, ive been there, and got myself out of it." Im sorry, but i dont see how sitting ready reserve for 16 months makes you a better pilot.
Nigel Croker
Well-Known Member
Re: "Paying your dues"
My definition of paying dues shouldnt matter, as only I know what sacrifices I made to get where I am, and only You know the sacrifices you made. How you came up through the ranks is your business, and frankly I dont care, you are here, That is what matters. There are a million ways to build time, and contacts while trying to make your way up the ladder ( and many times it is more about others lending a helping hand, and you paying it foward), now convince me that an 800 hr CFI should be deciding how someone should pay their dues.....those are the types I roll my eyes at
My definition of paying dues shouldnt matter, as only I know what sacrifices I made to get where I am, and only You know the sacrifices you made. How you came up through the ranks is your business, and frankly I dont care, you are here, That is what matters. There are a million ways to build time, and contacts while trying to make your way up the ladder ( and many times it is more about others lending a helping hand, and you paying it foward), now convince me that an 800 hr CFI should be deciding how someone should pay their dues.....those are the types I roll my eyes at
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
Re: "Paying your dues"
Yes, everyones life is hard because they have to live it. I agree with you on one thing, everyone does make sacrifices, but some sacrifices mean more than others, and the only person that it really matters to is the person hiring.
Yes, everyones life is hard because they have to live it. I agree with you on one thing, everyone does make sacrifices, but some sacrifices mean more than others, and the only person that it really matters to is the person hiring.
Nigel Croker
Well-Known Member
Re: "Paying your dues"
Touche'
Yes, everyones life is hard because they have to live it. I agree with you on one thing, everyone does make sacrifices, but some sacrifices mean more than others, and the only person that it really matters to is the person hiring.
Touche'
Re: "Paying your dues"
-mini
Will you be running any buy-three-get-one-free specials?
-mini
vikingair
Well-Known Member
Re: "Paying your dues"
So for you, paying dues is about the progression of experience obtained at different jobs and from the sounds of it obviously includes a stint as a freight dog. right?
I'll agree.
No I wouldn't..but when the he finishes up his internship I can guarantee you that if his hospital lays him off he won't have to start back at the beginning washing bedpans.
So for you, paying dues is about the progression of experience obtained at different jobs and from the sounds of it obviously includes a stint as a freight dog. right?
I'll agree.
No I wouldn't..but when the he finishes up his internship I can guarantee you that if his hospital lays him off he won't have to start back at the beginning washing bedpans.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
You "pay dues" for you, not a company. If you really care to master your craft, don't just go the easy route. I'm sorry, but that's the reason a lot of these guys who got hired into jets with low-time have no chops. Trust me, I know from personal experience.
I don't want to be that guy. I'm going so far with my penance that I intentionally bid to stay up north this winter just so I could get some solid winter experience in the 402. I'd done a northeast winter before, but it hardly counts if you have bleed air anti-ice.
I could have held a super easy schedule in St. Croix, living on the beach with a rum punch, but to me, the flying experience was more important.Remember: Do it for you and your skills. Screw what these companies think. Okay, now I've got to go dig my car out...