"Paying Your Dues" - Bad for business?

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
I remember something an old Sergeant Major said once from back in my Army days. I was graduating the Non Commissioned Officer Academy, a requisite for promotion to Sergeant. The Sergeant Major had an interesting subject for the speech he was giving us. He told us to avoid "Dumb Hooah."

For the unfamiliar, "Hooah" (hoo-ahhhh) is an Army-specific word, and means possibly anything except for "no", depending on the context in which it is used. Generally speaking, it's a word used to express motivation and enthusiasm. It's the single word that taps into a can-do attitude and the motivation, effort, and skill to get things done. So what, then, is "Dumb Hooah"?

The Sergeant Major had seen something consistent with young Sergeants and new leaders at all levels- the drive to get things done often lead to Dumb Hooah, and the end result was people tended to work harder instead of smarter. Smarter was better, he said, because in the harsh realities of both peacetime and wartime both, harder could get you killed.

While the day to day realities of professional aviation are a good deal different, the can-do attitude of aviators is something I often see. We deal with life or death decisions on a daily basis, and routinely cheat death with a skillful defiance of gravity and other natural forces. We fuel our exploits with all the motivation and confidence of 'Hooah', and the successful results of the business ventures we drive are the end result.
It is in the business equation of things where pilots venture into the dark territory of Dumb Hooah. Too often, I hear about pilots being required to 'pay their dues'. I call this entire concept to question. What exactly determines when a pilot has paid their dues? If there is such a requirement, who requires it, and why?

In the days gone by, the career path a pilot followed through the years has changed again and again. A time where barnstormers turned Air Mail pilots begat the first airline pilots was in turn replaced by ex-military pilots. The large majority of military pilots filling the ranks has since been replaced by civilian pilots coming from all variety of backgrounds.

In my father's day, most pilots were coming into the airlines from the military. Non-military civilian pilots were seen as never having 'paid their dues', and a slew of unrepeatable terms were generally applied to them. Some of it was based on career position envy, as many former miiltary pilots found themselves junior to their civilian counterparts. Some was more ideological.

The passage of time and change in military and airline composition saw fewer military pilots moving into the airlines. As civilian pilots began to fill the ranks as the greater majority, the attitudes shifted again. This time around, the prevailing attitude was that one had to climb the many rungs of a career progression ladder in order to get airline seat. Flight instruction, freight flying, regional airline time, etc, were the process-du-jour. So what, then, of those who bypass one of those steps, or those who take a different route entirely?

The rise of ab-initio pilot training academies gives rise to this question. Modern civilian pilots can pay a lump sum to a school of their choice and leave the academy with a fil of pilot certificates. Some, like myself, will have taken a different path. Based on my former employ in the Army and life circumstances, my training is a patchwork quilt of various FBOs, specialized academies, and other endeavors.

Regardless of the path one took, nowadays the end result is often the same. Pilots strive to find a job that allows them the lifestyle and salary that gives them the best life they can get, and everybody's definition of that is different. The variety of paths taken to that route, however, have been truncated by recent hiring booms. Given the very low times some companies were hiring pilots at in the past years, people have been quick to make the statement: "You don't belong here. You didn't pay your dues."

I ask this, then: If we're supposed to pay dues, to whom do we pay them? Furthermore, who determines who pays what and how much? Is credit given for some previous experiences and some not?

The underlying concept of 'paying one's dues' comes from the idea that one works and suffers a certain degree on the way into a life-long career. With the ever-changing nature and composition of modern air travel and freight operations, this seems to be a lingering after-effect of a time now past. Archaic notions of 'paying dues' in order to get in line to receive low pay and long hours seems ridiculous given current conditions and ever-shifting career expectations.

The civil aviation community is a business- to approach it as otherwise is contrary to good, sensible business practices. Paying more than one has to in order to reach a business goal is foolhardy at best. The cost of entry is already sky high- to add some intangible cost requiring some drawn out career progession on top of it seems questionable, at best.

Past generations of pilots are all too ready to tell the up-and-comers how hard they had it and how they 'paid their dues'. That may well have been appropriate in their era, given a lifetime expectation of return of investment in their case. Present day, this thinking does not apply.

While some may argue that bypassing certain segments of the piloting experience waters down a pilot's ability, that's really not the case. Were examiners and flight schools doing their jobs, pilots would not be able to submit resumes for jobs they're not realistically able to perform.

Proving that you're tougher and can follow a harder, less productive, more expensive path to arrive at the same destination doesn't help anyone. It just proves that pilots will pander to less and accept lower returns on their significant investments in their training, if only to prove that they've 'paid their dues'.

Given that, 'paying your dues' is just so much 'Dumb Hooah'.
 
"Paying your dues" also allows you to gain experience that will make you a better pilot. Stick and Rudder counts. Judgment counts. Experience counts. Going into the right seat at 300TT probably isn't the best way to build the necessary command experience. No we shouldn't have to accept lower pay just so that we have "adequate paid our dues," that being said, I do think it is important that someone's first 2000TT include something more than just "gear up, autopilot on."

I'm not going to criticize others for their choices, however I think there is something in flying more than just the job. I think that in many ways the experience can make or break you not only as a pilot, but also as a human being, just like in any other career. Yes, we shouldn't settle for less (good on you BTW for the KingAir thing) but no, we shouldn't expect the world on a silver platter. If you don't mind, I'll paraphrase a little here: that which doesn't kill you makes you a better pilot. If you can hack it through freight, bush, ag, the regional world, CFI-ing, etc. then you might just be better equipped for the trials and tribulations of the future.
 
"Paying your dues" also allows you to gain experience that will make you a better pilot. Stick and Rudder counts. Judgment counts. Experience counts. Going into the right seat at 300TT probably isn't the best way to build the necessary command experience. No we shouldn't have to accept lower pay just so that we have "adequate paid our dues," that being said, I do think it is important that someone's first 2000TT include something more than just "gear up, autopilot on."

I'm not going to criticize others for their choices, however I think there is something in flying more than just the job. I think that in many ways the experience can make or break you not only as a pilot, but also as a human being, just like in any other career. Yes, we shouldn't settle for less (good on you BTW for the KingAir thing) but no, we shouldn't expect the world on a silver platter. If you don't mind, I'll paraphrase a little here: that which doesn't kill you makes you a better pilot. If you can hack it through freight, bush, ag, the regional world, CFI-ing, etc. then you might just be better equipped for the trials and tribulations of the future.


For the most part, I agree- a variety of experience on the way to larger, more complicated experience will make you a more well-rounded aviator.

Lacking one of the many experiences possible on the way, however, does not make you 'less deserving' based on the subjective context someone else has on how much you should suffer before that point. :)
 
Ok, so for those that are building times, you're saying that if we should pay our dues, making $10-30K a year is fine. For one day we shall make more right?

Ok, how about those of us that took 4 years of school including in depth meteorology, physiology, systems, and other aviation classes? Are we educated the same as the average FBO graduate? Would these college graduates be at the same level as other pilots at 400TT?
 
I should mention I do not agree with the concept of paying your dues. If you have the skills, you have the skills and should be checked out on the job. Simply having 4000TT does not mean you're a good pilot.
 
Ok, how about those of us that took 4 years of school including in depth meteorology, physiology, systems, and other aviation classes? Are we educated the same as the average FBO graduate? Would these college graduates be at the same level as other pilots at 400TT?

Yep...you have the same qualifications as us average FBO graduate's have but we are about in 50% your debt.

Just because you have a 4 year degree in aviation doesn't mean you are a better pilot.

BTW: This is coming from someone that is finishing up a B.S. in Aviation Leadership that did all his ratings at FBO's.

I learned practically nothing new from the Aviation Classes that make me such a better pilot.
 
Everyone has such a widely varied path that it's impossible to tell if someone paid their dues, or even what 'paying your dues' means.

All I know is it's pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who knows what their doing (through study and effort) vs someone who's just along for the ride. And hrs in the logbook don't count for much as far as that goes.
 
...Lacking one of the many experiences possible on the way, however, does not make you 'less deserving' based on the subjective context someone else has on how much you should suffer before that point. :)


So, Paris Hilton for FO?

(sorry, you are the guy with the pink panties girl)


Back on topic, it helps to look at the upper and lower limits of what is acceptable (granted, Paris Hilton's upper AND lower limits are within spec).

Somebody, needs to judge; who judges is the question.

Personally, one of the toughest things to learn is to ignore those who will judge you but are not worthy and are always wrong and never get beyond where they are and do not want you to go past where they are lest they be diminished. We call these people scumbags and losers.


Another person to ignore is the money man--who doesn't give a damn about the craft of aviation. The money-man to embrace it the one who respects aviation...(I am thinking southwest's and virgin's moneymen)...they build a quality product and hire the best.

The person to embrace is the the son-of-a-bitch who hates (me) you, can out fly you like a mother&$&#(@r ---but will still teach (me) you if you listen....(as contrasted with the son-of-a-bitch who hates you and won't teach.)

Let's put it another way....YOU are a gekeeper...we respect you, listen to what you have to say. Should we ignore you?

Most importantly you have raised my standards to the point that I will forevermore ignore women with streak-marks on their pink panties.

b.
 
I think the term "paying your dues" is a vague and inaccurate moniker for the concept of developing experience; developing and refining a skill set, and mind set to approach future jobs.

There are so many experience building paths in this business that it is impossible to impartially judge from an outside perspective which one is best for each individual. Though it is mostly accepted that some paths are more rewarding in quality of experience than others.

That being said, no experience is still no experience.

A pilot with 300 hours has not had opportunity to develop skills and attitudes other than what their instructors could throw at them in the very brief time spent with the student. From my instructional experience students really only take away a small portion of what I try to teach them, my experience and skill set does not magically transfer into them, no matter how good I am.

I think another bogus part of the "Paying dues" concept is the idea that someone does or does not "deserve" a job. I am a firm believer that nobody deserves anything. Either the pilot is qualified or they are not.

Part of the big problem I see from the bottom looking up is that it seems like "qualified" is a subjective term that is based on how little a person is willing to work for, rather than the qualitative traits they possess.
 
I think the term "paying your dues" is a vague and inaccurate moniker for the concept of developing experience; developing and refining a skill set, and mind set to approach future jobs.

There are so many experience building paths in this business that it is impossible to impartially judge from an outside perspective which one is best for each individual. Though it is mostly accepted that some paths are more rewarding in quality of experience than others.

That being said, no experience is still no experience.

A pilot with 300 hours has not had opportunity to develop skills and attitudes other than what their instructors could throw at them in the very brief time spent with the student. From my instructional experience students really only take away a small portion of what I try to teach them, my experience and skill set does not magically transfer into them, no matter how good I am.

I think another bogus part of the "Paying dues" concept is the idea that someone does or does not "deserve" a job. I am a firm believer that nobody deserves anything. Either the pilot is qualified or they are not.

Part of the big problem I see from the bottom looking up is that it seems like "qualified" is a subjective term that is based on how little a person is willing to work for, rather than the qualitative traits they possess.
:clap:
 
For me it's about economics plain and simple. Just as "the Man" puts no value to your flying skills (as they pay you the same no matter how good a pilot you are) I put no value in making things as hard as possible on myself. If my goal is to be an airline/corporate pilot then I'm not going to arbitrarily do more if I can get the same job for less. I'm not going to pay one penny more than I have to the achieve the same goal. Ideals and fluffy feelings don't pay the bills in reality.
 
Who decides? The person interviewing at the time. The problem is mixing business and safety. Safety, apparently, is not economically beneficial. There seems to be a certain level of "moral flexibility" when it comes to doing the right thing, the hard right as opposed to the easy right, "Smart Hooah." The last several years have seen waaay too much Dumb Hooah practices by the regional airline management teams.

The easy right was to lower the standard. The hard right would have been to raise the pay/benefits to retain the experienced employees and recruit pilots away from other airlines. Another US Army (for the dyslexic: Yes My Retarded-A$$ Signed Up), comparison is the bonus system changes, new construction in post housing, and PX/Commissary options. The 5-sided puzzle palace FINALLY realized their status quo of R/R (Recruiting and Retention) practices were costing them in the training of new Joes and the loss of experienced NCOs and Officers. Oops. Throw that training money at KEEPING the experienced people. I seem to recall that a couple of regionals were offering signing bonuses for people already qualified on the aircraft. They started to get it.

The regionals' business models don't work like this. Management does not want senior people drawing the higher longevity pay. The airlines do not HAVE to make QOL any better as long as BB and JO have a stack of resumes on their desk with folks willing to work for poverty wages.

With the reductions in student starts and people tracking for an aviation career, when hiring resumes and the 65 wall goes up, they might be faced with the supply shortage with mounting demand. They will follow the Dumb Hooah path until they can't get any more. I just pray that the MPL stays away. Very Dumb Hooah.

Hooah? :beer:

"Hooah" can be used, like a popular 4-letter word, as a comma, exclaimation point, question mark :D
 
Ok, how about those of us that took 4 years of school including in depth meteorology, physiology, systems, and other aviation classes? Are we educated the same as the average FBO graduate? Would these college graduates be at the same level as other pilots at 400TT?

wow really.....
 
Ok, how about those of us that took 4 years of school including in depth meteorology, physiology, systems, and other aviation classes? Are we educated the same as the average FBO graduate? Would these college graduates be at the same level as other pilots at 400TT?
No, not a chance.

I took those classes too and knew far more than the kids I took classes with. On top of that, I had so much more practical experience I actually felt bad for the kids I was in class with. By the time I was done with my ratings I had made $500 learning to fly from selling my planes. I might even go so far as to say an academy grad with all his ratings and 250hrs is equivalent to a FBO trained PPL-IFR with 150hrs. The trivia will certainly be better but there is no correlation making it all but worthless. The only thing I know for sure is FBO trained pilots are better at economics.

I've paid my dues by trading manual labor for flight time and taking the assignments no one wanted. That puts me in the good graces of a lot of folks. Paying your dues isn't a bad thing but undercutting someone is. I did the things no one wanted to. That's gotten me more initials behind my name that I have space on my business cards.

Oh, and I've made some dang good friends doing it.
 
40-50 years ago you needed smart people to fly airplanes. Now a monkey can do it, and the salaries prove it.
 
Ok, so for those that are building times, you're saying that if we should pay our dues, making $10-30K a year is fine. For one day we shall make more right?

Ok, how about those of us that took 4 years of school including in depth meteorology, physiology, systems, and other aviation classes? Are we educated the same as the average FBO graduate? Would these college graduates be at the same level as other pilots at 400TT?


I'm not really saying anything about pay rates. I'm saying those that sit and state that pilots who didn't do this or didn't do that didn't properly "pay their dues". Those that say that purport that a certain pilot has bypassed a part of the required suffering en route in their career.

It's a counterproductive concept that leads many people to believe that the earlier parts of their careers should, in fact, require suffering, and thus, accept lower standards and pay in their work place.

People will to settle for less and then chalk it up to 'paying their dues' have really missed the mark, in my opinion.

As for your question regarding college degrees: For a pilot, there is nothing that requires a college diploma to fly an airplane. I'm living proof. My degree is only half finished and I safely fly jets for an airline all the time. Having a college degree is just another way to separate resumes during the hiring process. In a manner of speaking, it's just another way of "paying your dues". The worth you get from your college degree might better your life, but I seriously doubt it betters your flying.
 
Paying your dues made sense when you'd work for the same company for 30 to 40 years, and retire with a pension and a gold watch.

Now?

Screw dues paying.

If a company is going to consider canning your ass when their margins drop and earnings miss expectations by a penny a share, screw 'em.

I'm going to get as much as I can as quick as I can, because I know as soon as things are slightly less good, my job is at risk.

Show me the money, mofos, because you'll show me the door when things get less easy.
 
40-50 years ago you needed smart people to fly airplanes. Now a monkey can do it, and the salaries prove it.

:rotfl:We put a monkey in space!

Firebird,

That was a good post. Having gone to BNOC myself and being in the Army for 6 years I can attest to seeing dumb hooyah crap and the positive mental attitude needed to get someone through stressful situations.

"Paying your Dues" comes in many forms. I paid my dues last week when I soloed again. To me I worked hard to get to that point in my flight training and the solo was a rite of passage. I paid my dues to get to that point.

"Paying my dues" is not however, having another professional pilot talk down to me beacuse I am a student pilot. In bad situations that type of attitude can cause serious problems.
 
Some of this "paying dues" stuff comes from jealousy and pride. I could cite specific examples, but won't on a public forum.

If you can't pass a sim ride, or whatever stumbling block in front of you, then you need to fix it. One of my pet peeves in this world are guys criticizing others because of their own personal situation.
 
Of course, the flip side of "paying dues" is "sense of entitlement", something Ive been noticing with many young, up and coming pilots......esp the SJS types.
 
Back
Top