"Paying Your Dues" - Bad for business?

MikeD said:
Of course, the flip side of "paying dues" is "sense of entitlement", something Ive been noticing with many young, up and coming pilots......esp the SJS types.
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You just wish you flew an awesome jet instead of some crappy helicopter! All of your old rides sucked too, freakin' 1970's technology.

:)
 
ProudPilot said:
Ok, how about those of us that took 4 years of school including in depth meteorology, physiology, systems, and other aviation classes? Are we educated the same as the average FBO graduate? Would these college graduates be at the same level as other pilots at 400TT?
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:rotfl:

Those classes are worthless, all those who took them gained was a lot of debt (or a lot less money than they started with).
 
esa17 said:
I've paid my dues by trading manual labor for flight time and taking the assignments no one wanted. That puts me in the good graces of a lot of folks. Paying your dues isn't a bad thing but undercutting someone is.
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The bold part is very wise. Taking parts of a job that others find too good to do shows strength of character, not a lack of respect. Undercutting others allows employers to pay less that what experience is worth. Well said!

Firebird2XC said:
It's a counterproductive concept that leads many people to believe that the earlier parts of their careers should, in fact, require suffering, and thus, accept lower standards and pay in their work place.

People will to settle for less money & benefits and then chalk it up to 'paying their dues' have really missed the mark, in my opinion.
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I inserted the above bold italics to reflect my interpretation of what was said, which I agree with.

tonyw said:
Paying your dues made sense when you'd work for the same company for 30 to 40 years, and retire with a pension and a gold watch.

Now?

Screw dues paying.
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I find a lot of truth and wisdom in parts of the above quoted quotes.

I have walked away from 3 flying jobs I can think of, off of the top of my head, that I took and then was not presented with what was promised. For example, I took a oil survey job in Texas, spending $1500 to move. Within a month the boss tried to change the rules of the game in not paying the per diem, rather put company expenses on a credit card. I actually banked on the per diem as a salary boost, being slightly thrifty (yes, I stayed at a motel one which had plate glass and a sign that said "no refunds after 15 minutes) :)

By changing the rules of the game, the boss was ultimately trying to screw me, which many could consider paying dues. When I told him of the displeasure of the conflict in the original contract, he tried to not pay me what I was owed. It cost another $1500 to move back to my future wife.

I'm not trying to come across as a holier than thou person, but I feel that if enough pilots stood up for what is right rather than for what they can settle for companies might have such attrition that it becomes more beneficial to treat employees with respect. It was definitely hard to move 3 times and walk away from jobs; it took me 3 times to learn. Since then, none of my flight positions have been undercompensated and I have been relatively happy. My last job was eliminated due to economics and has made it difficult on Daneille and I, as her company is restructuring and we don't know where we will be moved to - so I can't look for a new job right now.

But, when we do know, rest assured I won't be jumping at the first thing that comes along to get the paycheck. I will take the first job that pays my experience for what it is worth.
 
esa17 said:
I've paid my dues by trading manual labor for flight time and taking the assignments no one wanted. That puts me in the good graces of a lot of folks. Paying your dues isn't a bad thing but undercutting someone is. I did the things no one wanted to. That's gotten me more initials behind my name that I have space on my business cards.

Oh, and I've made some dang good friends doing it.
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Ok, so we're going back to flying is a reward that if you are so lucky to be able to fly we should just be grateful? The fair majority of us need these jobs to put food on the table, and flying for free is undercutting. Having to work, to even get the flight that you took for free is worse!

The worst part of this business is the who you know not what you know aspect. It makes family and close friends above those who truly desire to do great in the job but haven't known the owner for 5 years. I agree that hiring someone that is qualified and known is better than an unknown. However, hiring a family member at 100 hrs tt to cropdust, while passing over an experienced pilot that moved to town just makes me angry as it keeps many doors shut across the industry, lowering competitive wages.



If you feel that you need to fly worn out aircraft, skirt thunderstorms, or push the envelope to prove you're a pilot, you have just become the bold pilot. For those of us looking to be the old pilot, being the master of your craft includes being able to gain experience while getting paid and working up a corporate ladder. Not having a few years below poverty hoping for better times in the future.
 
tonyw said:
Paying your dues made sense when you'd work for the same company for 30 to 40 years, and retire with a pension and a gold watch.

Now?

Screw dues paying.

If a company is going to consider canning your ass when their margins drop and earnings miss expectations by a penny a share, screw 'em.

I'm going to get as much as I can as quick as I can, because I know as soon as things are slightly less good, my job is at risk.

Show me the money, mofos, because you'll show me the door when things get less easy.
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:yeahthat:

Awesome post Tony.
 
"Paying your dues"

What does this mean to you and how exactly have you "paid your dues"?

[modhat]
EDIT: Aleady covered topic, so combined up with the previous one.---MikeD[/modhat]
 
Re: "Paying your dues"

vikingair said:
What does this mean to you and how exactly have you "paid your dues"?
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It means you've put up with the requisite quantity of BS, and have successfully survived the amount of dangerous situations required to have good judgment.

I've been paying my dues flying 135 in Alaska for the last two and a half years.
 
Re: "Paying your dues"

ppragman said:
It means you've put up with the requisite quantity of BS, and have successfully survived the amount of dangerous situations required to have good judgment.

I've been paying my dues flying 135 in Alaska for the last two and a half years.
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That is the proper way to pay your dues.

The other option is to buy your 'dues' for $70,000 from Gulfstream or Eaglejet. :rotfl:
 
Re: "Paying your dues"

Like most things, depends on whose mouth it's coming out of. If it comes out of mine, it means learning how to fly to standards while dealing with weather/stress/pressure and to make proper decisions (including when you CAN do something rather than simply when you CAN'T) rather than feeling that you're owed a living simply because someone took a lot of your money and gave you a piece of plastic.

Obviously, it's a loaded phrase. As most are.
 
Re: "Paying your dues"

Lima86 said:
Is there some kind of discount that can be had on these dues?
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Ill give you the JC discount. Right seat in a 210 for only $75 an hour. If after 100 hours I dont totally convince you to quite the profession, then the price goes up to whatever it takes to get you out of the damn seat. :)
 
Re: "Paying your dues"

Personally I don't like the phrase, but understand the rationale behind it. For some reason it appears that the "paying your dues" period will eventually end and a person will be in a 'better' situation. The problem is that some people feel that simply putting up with and getting past the "paying your dues" stage will result in peace and prosperity for the rest of their career, which for some will just never happen.

Its like trying to enter the "real world." I thought that happened after high school, but I was apparently wrong. But it may be when I graduate college, or even after my first crappy job.
 
Re: "Paying your dues"

Does a non-aviation job count as a means of paying your dues as a way to avoid debt with flight training? A job where you get threatened to be replaced everyday if you don't hit your next to impossible sales goals.

I am thankful to have a source of income in this recession, but am honest and hate certain things about my non-aviation job with passion. Is what it is.:D
 
Re: "Paying your dues"

I agree with Boris.

Some people would say that after being a CFI for a year, then sitting right seat in an RJ for 2 years before upgrading, their "dues were paid." I've run into guys like that, and frankly, it's laughable.

My opinion on "paying dues" is to be gaining PIC experience in old airplanes in junk weather. I was hired at a 121 regional into the right seat of an RJ with 830 hours in 2007. My only experience prior to that was flying around in AZ as a CFI. Looking back on it, I didn't belong in the seat. My furlough 13 months later turned into the best thing that's ever happened to my career...I've gotten the opportunity to go back and pay some dues. If I take recall, I'll be a much more competent pilot in terms of both judgment and airmanship than before I left.
 
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