Pay raise today

[jynxyjoe]

Well, there were 60 9E guys and a FedEx guy out there yesterday, and it went well. Sorry to the XJ and 9L guys, but the "progress" we've since Wed is about the same amount of "progress" the 9E group has seen from this same negotiating team from management since about February.

No apologies needed. Ya'll have been getting rogered, perhaps some good will come of all this and Pinnacle management will come to terms with the fact treating employees like crap has repercussions.

Section 25 closed yet? Nope. Still got vacation and insurance open as well. Essentially, we're down to the big sections, which historically, this management team takes, literally, years to close. Without any sort of pressure on them (and I don't buy the "they need the JCBA for cost issues" since if they did, we wouldn't be having this conversation), they'll continue to drag it out.

What is you're guys estimate on a date for completion or impasse? We keep hearing things are close but they can't say much in the interest of negotiating.

From the words of our negotiatiors, and I hate to undermine the 9L MEC, but I'm going to, the above sections are a bit misleading. Of everything listed, scope is the only thing accomplished THIS week. Long call reserve is still subject to change since section 25 is still open. Even then, last I heard the language governing it was still up in the air. Retirement is still subject to change since it's linked with insurance. The 4 hour min day was worked out weeks ago prior to the second management set deadline. Even then, we had to fight to make sure it applied to ALL pilots and not just JET pilots. 11 days off for everyone was also done about the same time. DoS pay raise increases are pretty much industry standard. If we didn't get those, there would be some serious issues.

Once again, wake me up when we get scheduling, insurance, vacation and compensation closed. Hell, I'd be happy with just Section 25. I've seen the same three sections open for over a year on our own negotiations. Sorry if the "progress" made isn't impressing me so far, but the history of 9E says we could be waiting for a while.

In the meantime, hope to see some 9E guys on the picket line in JFK on the 14th. I'm already flying that day.

Negotiations restart on the 14th too. Looks like a long weekend of no new news.

I hope you aren't up in freaking MSP today man. I sent one friend up there today he's in Grand Forks after 2 go arounds. Fly safe.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Next thing we new, we were put on ice by the NMB and within the week came announcement that the company had purchased Mesaba. You will notice that things were going great in negotiations right up until the last day. That was when the company came at us with the Retirement and Insurance plans.

Notice the similarities between those negotiations and what is currently going on. That whole process was just over 3 months, we are now over 2 months in to this process. We had multiple "deadlines" come up and we continued talks because of "momentum". At the end of 2 months of negotiating we had a lot of closed sections, but the big items (Insurance, Retirement, Compensation) remained open. Those same items are open today, just over 2 months in to negotiations.

Our MEC and our pilots thought now was the right time for picketing because we have seen this whole thing play out before. Yes, I know Pinnacle isn't alone in this anymore, but we are still fighting with the same management team. The sooner we all agree that the company probably isn't playing nice, the better for everybody.[/SIZE][/FONT]

So you're saying theres a chance!

I guess you truly feel, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I would say I agree with you. However, the position you state dismisses the possibility of good faith bargaining from the company. You, and many like you, feel the evidence is overwhelmingly indicative that the company is some sort of giant evil rat (is that what the inflatable thing is all about?) that will never give in. Obviously, everyone will have to judge for their own.

 

[ctab5060X]

Essentially, we're down to the big sections, which historically, this management team takes, literally, years to close.

To give an example...

The last four sections closed on TA1 were the same ones open now. The section closed immediately prior to those four... scope. Length of time between scope and the first TA... six months.

 

[SrFnFly227]

So you're saying theres a chance!

I guess you truly feel, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I would say I agree with you. However, the position you state dismisses the possibility of good faith bargaining from the company. You, and many like you, feel the evidence is overwhelmingly indicative that the company is some sort of giant evil rat (is that what the inflatable thing is all about?) that will never give in. Obviously, everyone will have to judge for their own.

I do feel that way. Could also go with that whole "fool me once, fool me twice" saying. Of course this time around is actually fool me 3 times. We gave them once, got TA1. We gave them twice, got put on ice. I'm trying to stay positive on try number 3, but after 3 passed "deadlines", I am forced to believe the company is playing the same old game.

I really do hope I'm wrong though. I really hope that this time is different, that the company has some new motivation pushing them to get this done. I just think that if they were truly serious, and if this contract would really save them money, they would have had it done by the first deadline.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I guess you truly feel, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I would say I agree with you. However, the position you state dismisses the possibility of good faith bargaining from the company. You, and many like you, feel the evidence is overwhelmingly indicative that the company is some sort of giant evil rat (is that what the inflatable thing is all about?) that will never give in. Obviously, everyone will have to judge for their own.

Joe... the bolded line is something I'd like to address. Have you read PCL TA1?

The "yes" voters at the union level said "we can't vote based on how we think Pinnacle will interpret the contract. They have to have a clean slate." Riiiiiiiiiiight. And denial is a river in Egypt.

We absolutely should consider anything that we negotiate through the eyes of the enemy. The enemy is management. They will twist the JCBA every which way until Sunday, and as always, if it's legal per the FARs, there's not a dang thing you can do about it. Oh wait.... fly then grieve it.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I do feel that way. Could also go with that whole "fool me once, fool me twice" saying. Of course this time around is actually fool me 3 times. We gave them once, got TA1. We gave them twice, got put on ice. I'm trying to stay positive on try number 3, but after 3 passed "deadlines", I am forced to believe the company is playing the same old game.

I really do hope I'm wrong though. I really hope that this time is different, that the company has some new motivation pushing them to get this done. I just think that if they were truly serious, and if this contract would really save them money, they would have had it done by the first deadline.

Hey no problem man. Intelligent rational human beings have to look at evidence and draw conclusions. Can't fight nature, can't fight wiring.

As a general reminder, to all 3 sides, we gotta all have a hug out session at some point because we will be working alongside one another. I know I'm as big a grenade tosser as anyone online, but even I'm uncomfortable with this level of discourse. Bridges have to be rebuilt here at some point. Sooner the better.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Hey no problem man. Intelligent rational human beings have to look at evidence and draw conclusions. Can't fight nature, can't fight wiring.

As a general reminder, to all 3 sides, we gotta all have a hug out session at some point because we will be working alongside one another. I know I'm as big a grenade tosser as anyone online, but even I'm uncomfortable with this level of discourse. Bridges have to be rebuilt here at some point. Sooner the better.

It will be much easier to rebuild the bridge with the Colgan and Mesaba pilots than it will be to do so with Pinnacle Corp. We're brothers. Brothers fight, but they're always brothers.

Corp will never be my friend.... unless some BIG, sweeping, radical changes are made.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Joe... the bolded line is something I'd like to address. Have you read PCL TA1?

To say I've read the whole contract would be a lie. Some crazy mo pho gave me some of the TA1 in pdf version, he was like all ninja Saigon (if you're wondering about the slang, I'm watching Dave Chappel on Netflix) and ran it out to me. I read the sections I was most curious about. I honestly spent most of my contract reading time on my own contract.

Politely, I'd like to offer a reminder that the TA1 you voted on was not crammed down anyone's throat. Obviously you had some drunk crazy sexy time on the negotiating table that led to that TA, and the majority of the pilot group voted it down (wisely). You got a fresh start and it got cut off early by Delta giving us away for no money down. Not our fault, by the way. As the brits used to say about American pilots, we are oversexed, over paid, and over here.

We absolutely should consider anything that we negotiate through the eyes of the enemy. The enemy is management. They will twist the JCBA every which way until Sunday, and as always, if it's legal per the FARs, there's not a dang thing you can do about it. Oh wait.... fly then grieve it.

Hehe, I'm not going to get into a big debate about "fly it then grieve it". That is the stupid process, it is stupid, if I could burn the RLA I would.

Our pilot group is not predisposed to assume the worst. You can call it optimism, you can say our heads are in the clouds (simply because the mods would smackith you down if you said where many 9E pilots believe our heads are), you can say we are blissfully ignorant. We will continue to do what we are doing, and assume a level of cooperation from the company you find it impossible to believe in. Time will tell. We hope our past successful negotiations with a different management group brings a correct level of optimism, our experiences dictate our attitude. Progress is not success, but hopefully it leads to success.

If we are wrong we are wrong. It's clear neither side will be brought around to the other's point of view. Only Pinnacle can break the deadlock one way or the other.

 

[kellwolf]

We actually only have 2 commuters out of ORF, but you guessed correct. And funny you should mention the OJI. Looks like I am probably getting another knee surgery in January for that same injury (never really healed). But the good news is that I was told during my PC that we won't be checking the Avionics Bay door during our preflight anymore. Too many broken handles.

Any hints on your real life identity???

Hell, I'll give it away. I was flying with you when you slipped and banged it into the ground.

 

[jynxyjoe]

It will be much easier to rebuild the bridge with the Colgan and Mesaba pilots than it will be to do so with Pinnacle Corp. We're brothers. Brothers fight, but they're always brothers.

Corp will never be my friend.... unless some BIG, sweeping, radical changes are made.

This just in on CNN, some crazy memphian monkey (reported to be holding a pizza cutter) has just bought Pinnacle airlines. Details coming in soon.

 

[kellwolf]

The problem with assuming good faith bargaining from the company is they haven't shown a shred of it in the near 5 years I've been paying attention. Leopards don't change their spots. Thought I'd toss one more cliche into this thread while I was at it. Submitted for your approval:

Sign this "last, best and final" offer. NWA is gonna yank our flying. Week later, 10 year ASA signed with NWA....with more planes, which we then moved to XJ when we didn't sign by a management proposed deadline.

Sign this or we won't get anymore flying. -900 flying announced with Delta shortly afterwards.

We can't afford that. Purchase Colgan.

We NEED this health insurance concession, otherwise we can't afford any of this. A couple of days later, XJ purchase announced.

When you've been punched in the eye enough times, eventually you stop believing your spouse is gonna change, and they mean it this time.

I do agree with Rex. It'll be MUCH easier to re-build a bridge with 9L/XJ than corp. When asked what management could do to get my trust back, I said "Quit." They've already damaged their credibility beyond repair. However, if things continue to spiral out of control, it's gonna turn into US Airways vs America West. It's already well down that road as it is. If the JCBA falls apart, things are gonna get NASTY when airplanes start getting moved.

If we get a TA before Xmas, I'll go on hear and APC and tell everyone congrats, you were right. Let's move on. If we don't, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the XJ guys that are yelling at us to do the same. Based on what I've read/heard/witnessed, I have reservations on the pride swallowing and crow eating.

As far as a date of completion or impasse.....9E guys are the LAST people that should be guessing at that. I figured we would have had an impasse declared by the NMB 6 months ago. Instead, we're on ice. Completion? Who knows. That's up to the company, but the "give them a little progress to keep them happy.....but don't close any sections" has been the status quo for 6 years for them. If we have a TA by Xmas....I'll be pleasantly surprised. Negotiations re-start on the 14th. They'll likely end on the 17th for the week. So, that's 4 days. Figure them re-starting on the 21-23rd, and that's 3 more days. So, we're looking at 7 days of negotiations. We had 3 this week and got scope done....which was ONE aspect left in the section. If they get one aspect done a day.....we're looking at next year sometime, if at all on the JCBA.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Hell, I'll give it away. I was flying with you when you slipped and banged it into the ground.

More likely Kellwolf kicked his knee out. Straight up gansta'!

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Politely, I'd like to offer a reminder that the TA1 you voted on was not crammed down anyone's throat. Obviously you had some drunk crazy sexy time on the negotiating table that led to that TA, and the majority of the pilot group voted it down (wisely). You got a fresh start and it got cut off early by Delta giving us away for no money down. Not our fault, by the way. As the brits used to say about American pilots, we are oversexed, over paid, and over here.

You missed the fireworks then...

MEM Chief Pilot telling junior FOs that not signing the contract would lead to their furlough
ATL Base Manager saying that anyone who votes on this generous piece of paper is stupid
ATL CA/FO Rep selling the contract to the plebs saying that we better take it because it can't get any better

the 42%'ers saying that the shortsightedness of junior pilots with regards to the bonus will cost everyone millions

Halby giving us statistics on how much worse contracts get the second go around at negotiating.

All in all.... sold to us, crammed down our throat.... take your pick. I will tell you that's exactly what happened. The only level-head in this was SE sitting at the TA Road Shows with a clear look of dismay for what was in front of the group on his face... could he say anything? No... PF PH and the rest of the idiot negotiators were still on the team.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Compounding the problem Kellwolf, if everything goes my way and we get a TA, the TA could still be crap and we've got to vote it down. I don't know man, too many variables.

I think the Mesaba, Pinnacle, and Colgan guys at the neg table right now are doing everything they can do get us a good TA. I hope we don't end up with Pinnacle walking away or a useless TA.

Not exactly Mai tai and yatzy this days for pilot unity.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Compounding the problem Kellwolf, if everything goes my way and we get a TA, the TA could still be crap and we've got to vote it down. I don't know man, too many variables.

I think the Mesaba, Pinnacle, and Colgan guys at the neg table right now are doing everything they can do get us a good TA. I hope we don't end up with Pinnacle walking away or a useless TA.

Not exactly Mai tai and yatzy this days for pilot unity.

Well... the Pinnacle MEC knows what happens when a bad TA is presented to the pilot group. Blood is spilled - people lose their union jobs. I'm not afraid to have that happen again if they don't prove to us they know what they're doing.

Pinnacle walking away.... that I can't tell you will go well. So far, at every difficult step, they have.

 

[kellwolf]

You missed the fireworks then...

MEM Chief Pilot telling junior FOs that not signing the contract would lead to their furlough
ATL Base Manager saying that anyone who votes on this generous piece of paper is stupid
ATL CA/FO Rep selling the contract to the plebs saying that we better take it because it can't get any better

the 42%'ers saying that the shortsightedness of junior pilots with regards to the bonus will cost everyone millions

Halby giving us statistics on how much worse contracts get the second go around at negotiating.

All in all.... sold to us, crammed down our throat.... take your pick. I will tell you that's exactly what happened. The only level-head in this was SE sitting at the TA Road Shows with a clear look of dismay for what was in front of the group on his face... could he say anything? No... PF PH and the rest of the idiot negotiators were still on the team.

Trufax, all of it. You also left out the fact that the 42%ers will still say the union should have done a better job of selling it. 'Course if I was getting a 5 figure bonus, I'd be telling guys to vote "yes," too.

 

[jynxyjoe]

You missed the fireworks then...

MEM Chief Pilot telling junior FOs that not signing the contract would lead to their furlough
ATL Base Manager saying that anyone who votes on this generous piece of paper is stupid
ATL CA/FO Rep selling the contract to the plebs saying that we better take it because it can't get any better

the 42%'ers saying that the shortsightedness of junior pilots with regards to the bonus will cost everyone millions

Halby giving us statistics on how much worse contracts get the second go around at negotiating.

All in all.... sold to us, crammed down our throat.... take your pick. I will tell you that's exactly what happened. The only level-head in this was SE sitting at the TA Road Shows with a clear look of dismay for what was in front of the group on his face... could he say anything? No... PF PH and the rest of the idiot negotiators were still on the team.

Man it really is dog eat dog over there. I was looking at it more as a company stuffing it down your throat. Your examples here would indicate that your own union was stuffing it down your throats.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Trufax, all of it. You also left out the fact that the 42%ers will still say the union should have done a better job of selling it. 'Course if I was getting a 5 figure bonus, I'd be telling guys to vote "yes," too.

None of this is gonna matter when we are big time musicians.

 

[kellwolf]

Man it really is dog eat dog over there. I was looking at it more as a company stuffing it down your throat. Your examples here would indicate that your own union was stuffing it down your throats.

More like senior pilots were doing so. It just so happened some of those senior pilots were also union reps. I have to say, the guys we have (in MEM at least) are good at putting the rep hat on and off. 'Course, once again, the North Mississippi Flying Club is trying to oust the "junior" guys that don't see eye-to-eye with them.....

 

[kellwolf]

None of this is gonna matter when we are big time musicians.

We're huge in Belgium.

Seriously, I shoulda moved out to Vegas with my buddy. They're playing clubs in LA......