Part 61 Commercial Checkride

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
Okay, looks like we're all right in certain respects. I looked in my PTS (which I have in my office - I know... GEEK
) and you do indeed have to do your commercial checkride in a complex. It just doesn't say that it has to be a single engine complex. Read on:

I spoke with a three-year instructor and here's how it's going to go and why:

I CAN do the CSEL in the Warrior (as we all know - a "non-complex" aircraft), then, immediately following, switch over to the Travel Air (Multi-Engine) to demonstrate the required understanding of the complex requirements...as I also take my CMEL checkride.

It's just a variation of what was suggested above by the person who said to do part of the checkride in a 172, then switch over to the Arrow to demonstrate the complex requirements.... EXCEPT...

..by doing it the way the DE, my instructor and I have talked about doing it - I will be taking care of both the CSEL and CMEL in one day..... one very LONG day.


So, yes, to receive your commercial rating, you must do your checkride in a complex aircraft.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
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So, yes, to receive your commercial rating, you must do your checkride in a complex aircraft.

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Only the initial needs be done (or partly done) in a complex aircraft.

It looks as if I'll be doing my CSEL add-on in an Aeronca Champ (7DC). Tailwheel, no flaps, only an altimeter, VSI, T&S and a few engine instruments - that's about as non-complex as you can get!
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
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Only the initial needs be done (or partly done) in a complex aircraft.

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Right, but nothing is said about having to demonostrate the complex requirements in a complex single engine

Here's how it reads:

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Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test
The commercial pilot -- airplane applicant is requred by 14 CFR section 61.45, to provide an airworthy, certificated airplane for use during the practical test. This section further requires that the aircraft must:
3...
2...
3...
4.. be a complex airplane furnished by the applicant, unless the applicant currently holds a commercial pilot certificate with a single-engine or multi-engine class rating as appropriate, <font color="red">for the performance of takeoffs, landings, and appropriate emergency procedures.</font> A complex landplane is one having retractable landing gear, flaps and controllable propeller or turbine-powered....

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So, in essence, after doing the commercial maneuvers in the Warrior, I will have met all the requirements for the CSEL except the complex requirements... which I will be demonstrating in the twin.

Clear as mud?


I guess I could always do the CMEL FIRST as my initial Comm. ticket, then switch over to the Warrior.... Hmmmmmm... that might work better, no?
 

SUSPilot

Well-Known Member
Since your Commercial Intitial would be Single-Engine, you would have to fly in a complex single. If you do your multi engine as the intitial than you could do your single engine as an add on in a Warrior, but to do the multi-engine as an initial you will have to meet all the training requirements for a intitial commercial in that category and class listed in the FARs. I don't have the FARs in front of me so this is just off memory and I would check for the exact requirements, but it is 10hrs PIC in multiengine airplanes, 5hrs of instrument intruction in a multi engine, 2 1hr dual VFR 100nm cross-counties(one night and one day), and the 300nm XC three points with on leg being at least 250nm. I looked into doing mine that way when my arrow had to get a new engine, but it didn't make since to redo all of those flights in the Duchess since I already qualified for the Single engine commercial, so I waited for my plane to be ready. Even though you are going to do the multi engine commercial ride on the same day, you are technically taking two checkrides. After the single engine ride you would be issued a temporary commercial single engine land certificate, which you would surrender upon the completion of your commercial multi engine land add on to get back a certificate that would say commercial single and multi engine land instrument airplane.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
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Right, but nothing is said about having to demonostrate the complex requirements in a complex single engine

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Totally agree. Never said otherwise.
However, one might argue that because it's a Single Engine Commercial Certificate you are testing for it needs to be demonstrated in a single engine aircraft (becasue SEL and MEL priviliges are mutually exclusive) but if your DE is cool with your set-up run with it and don't look back!


[ QUOTE ]
I guess I could always do the CMEL FIRST as my initial Comm. ticket, then switch over to the Warrior.... Hmmmmmm... that might work better, no?

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That's essentially what I did. There are a couple of advantages. One: the Commercial MEL ride is almost the exactly the same as the Private MEL ride. In other words it's a cake-walk if you're up on MEL ops. Two: This then makes the CSEL ride an add-on. So you go up, do the four manuevers you didn't do in the twin (chandeles, lazy 8's, 8's on pylons, power-off 180 landing) and call it a day.

What on Earth the FAA's logic is by not including SEL priviliges when the Commercial is initially done in a twin is, well, beyond me but that's the way it is. Or, in other words, why a MEL Commercial Certificate does not include SEL commercial priviliges is beyond me.

Essentially the FAA (by granting my commercial-multi ticket) is saying "we trust you can fly an airplane with two, or four, or 18 engines - to commercial standards carrying passengers or property - but we don't think you can handle an aircraft with one engine!"
 

SUSPilot

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
What on Earth the FAA's logic is by not including SEL priviliges when the Commercial is initially done in a twin is, well, beyond me but that's the way it is. Essentially the FAA (by granting my commercial multi ticket) is saying "we trust you can fly an airplane with two, or four, or 18 engines - to commercial standards carrying passengers or property - but we don't think you can handle an aircraft with one engine![/b].


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I don't know the reason, but in the same manner it would be possible(although no insurance company would allow it) to do your initial training in a twin, and then you would have a private pilot muti engine land certificate with no single engine privleges.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
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I don't know the reason, but in the same manner it would be possible(although no insurance company would allow it) to do your initial training in a twin, and then you would have a private pilot muti engine land certificate with no single engine privleges.

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Yes, but in that scenario the pilot has never flown a single so that scenario makes a little more sense. I'm talking about a pilot who holds Private ASEL/AMEL who then gets the intial Commercial in the Multi. Just doesn'tadd-up in my book.
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
Well, my understanding of the way my DE expalained it to me is that it's sort of a gray area and that there would be no problem with doing it as I laid it out above.

BUT - that being said - if it's something that might be questioned by the F.A.A. (not worried about any employer - only the F.A.A. matters in this instance), then I wouldn't want to risk it.

I may just do the thing in the Arrow and be done with it.


I'm going to talk with my DE again this week and get the skinny. I'll post what he says if I get the chance.
 

FL270

New Member
The DPE I used for all my checkrides when I was instructing did "two-for-one" commercial rides like you're talking about all the time. Our flight school did not have a complex airplane (two 152s, two 172s, a 172SP, and a Duchess) so we could not do commercial SELs. We would train in both the Cessna and the Duchess. The sign-offs would be for an initial commercial in the single-engine with an MEL add-on. We made sure to do 10 hours minimum in the Duchess to meet the complex requirement ... of course, the instruction and checkride prep seemed to take 12-15 hours for most of my students, so that was pretty much a non-issue. The two checkrides would be scheduled for a single (full) day. Two 8710s, two exam fees.

The exam would begin with the Commercial SEL oral, covering all the stuff you would expect it to. Then you'd go out and do all the required maneuvers in the Cessna for the flight. Provided that went OK, you had a "conditional" satisfactory on the SEL ride. You then did a MEL oral, then flew the twin. Passing that ride you were good on everything and got the Commercial SEL/MEL. What did happen a couple times with other instructors' students was that the guy would fail the multi part ... bad Vmc demo or screwed up a single-engine ILS, whatever. However, the commercial SEL would still be issued since the guy was able to demonstrate in the multi that he could put the gear up and down, etc.

The way the paperwork worked was that the SEL 8710 would list C-152 AND BE-76 as "aircraft flown" on the checkride. The MEL, of course, was BE-76 only. The DPE had no problem with this system, by every reading I could make of the regs and PTS it was no problem, and the FSDO (CLT in this case) never questioned it or bounced any paperwork. I signed off several myself, as did my fellow instructors. In fact, sometimes we even divvied up the instruction. I would let some of our lower-time CFIs (guys who weren't yet insurable in the Duchess) do the SEL stuff in the Cessna and sign off the SEL ride while I did the multiengine instruction in the Duchess.

The big question is whether you have a DPE willing to do this. Some won't. If that's taken care of, and you as a student don't mind a long checkride day, you can get both your SEL and MEL commercial in a single day in a relatively straightforward fashion. It also has the advantage that you can do the single-engine portion in about any airplane you want ... we usually did them in 152s. Of course, doing Chandelles in 152s lends a whole new (ironic) meaning to the term "performance maneuvers". This method is certainly a lot cheaper than doing the initial in the twin, just because of the need to meet the XC requirements in category &amp; class.

Good luck!
FL270
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Former DPE and now FAA Inspector Steve Brady says you must use a single engine to demonstrate the complex maneuvers for the CSEL unless you do the CMEL first. Once the ink is wet on the CMEL certificate, then you can go up and demonstrate Commercial maneuvers in the single engine warrior.
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Former DPE and now FAA Inspector Steve Brady says you must use a single engine to demonstrate the complex maneuvers for the CSEL unless you do the CMEL first. Once the ink is wet on the CMEL certificate, then you can go up and demonstrate Commercial maneuvers in the single engine warrior.

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Okay.. I can live with that, but then it raises the question of - (as SUSPilot mentioned above) - If I chose to take the CMEL ride first, wouldn't I have to go back and meet all the 61.129 requirements like:

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<font color="red">(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least --

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least --

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least --

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

</font>

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????

My understanding is that because I've already earned my PPMEL and demonstrated the complex requirements to PTS standards, I don't need to demonstrate them again in a single-engine for the Comm. ride.... and/or ... that since I'll be taking the CMEL ride IMMEDIATELY following the CSEL ride, the complex requirements demonstrated for the CMEL will "take the place" of what would usually be demonstrated in the single....


But, judging by the PTS, my understanding may be - well - wrong.


So........ confusing..... must.... relieve... brain cramp.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
The reality is that if the DPE goes along with the plan you shouldn't have a problem.
Don't sweat it, just study, practice, and then nail it!
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
My understanding is that because I've already earned my PPMEL and demonstrated the complex requirements to PTS standards, I don't need to demonstrate them again in a single-engine for the Comm. ride.

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You've demonstrated those skils to a private pilot standards - not commercial standards. But as already stated if the DE is cool with it don't ask just nod your head, say "yessir, nossir" and keep on truckin'.


As far as going back and doing the requirements, no you don't have to. You've already demonstrated/aquired the experience necessary to hold a commercial certificate. That's proven by the fact you hold a commercial certificate. When you do an add-on (at any level) you look at the PTS add-on table and do what's outlined in there. Or so that's my feeble understanding.
 

chperplt

New Member
If you do not have a commercial certificate yet, and plan on doing your SE first, you will get an incomplete on your checkride until you fly the complex. If you get an incomplete on your SE portion of the commercial checkride, your ME portion of the checkride will be a full checkride and not an add-on, since you do not yet hold a commercial pilots licence.
 

EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
R2F, if the DE is cool with it, go for it! Technically, you should have to get the CMEL first and then do the CSEL next. The initial commercial ride needs to be done in a complex airplane.

By the way, how far are you from ZPH? I've been back and forth quite a few times since my best friend moved down there. He lives in N. Tampa, is there a better airport that's closer? Next time I'm headed that way I can send you a PM and you can go for a ride around the pattern if you'd like. I usually take the Seneca.
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
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By the way, how far are you from ZPH? I've been back and forth quite a few times since my best friend moved down there. He lives in N. Tampa, is there a better airport that's closer?

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Oh yeah, there is Tampa North (X39) which is on the Northern edge of Tampa.

Where in Tampa ("North Tampa" is pretty large and spread out) does your friend live?

(you can PM me with that if you want and I can give you a better idea of whether Tampa North or ZPH is the better option).

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Next time I'm headed that way I can send you a PM and you can go for a ride around the pattern if you'd like. I usually take the Seneca.

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THAT, my friend - is a deal! I'll buy dinner/lunch...whatever.

R2F
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
Well I passed my CSEL. I am a commercial pilot now, well sort of, I don't get my certificate till May. What a short stint it was too. Got my private on May 29th, and have flown 130 hours since then and another 30 hours in the sim.
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Well I passed my CSEL. I am a commercial pilot now, well sort of, I don't get my certificate till May.

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Maybe I missed the reason, but why do you have to wait until May????

Outstanding, BTW!!!
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
We take various stage checks, which is just like a checkride. After the last one stage check (which is the 8th one), we get our multi-engine commercial instrument ticket. I will be done sometime next semester with that, but will have to wait until the ground school is over in may to receive it. Did I lose ya!! Yeah, it is dumb in my opinion.
 
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