Pan Am Diaspora?
- Thread starter chunk75
- Start date
Sprint100
Well-Known Member
Doug,
We know, thank, and respect the hard job you are doing. I never meant nor tried to imply that all this board was primarily used for was Pan Am bashing. Actually, I have received some very beneficial information in my decision to choose WSA. There is some bashing going on, I believe, and didn't want that to spread and effect what this board should really be about.
We know, thank, and respect the hard job you are doing. I never meant nor tried to imply that all this board was primarily used for was Pan Am bashing. Actually, I have received some very beneficial information in my decision to choose WSA. There is some bashing going on, I believe, and didn't want that to spread and effect what this board should really be about.
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Guest
Guest
There are many things I love about Pan Am and there are many great people. And for the most part I have not run into the majority of the problems that I have heard about people running into. I will say this though. The program is really hard to finish. For one, the training costs. But that aside it is really hard to finish because of inflexibility. you cannot get a job to cover the extra living expenses because you have absolutely no control over your schedule. And lets face it, a lot of the delays are far beyond your control like waiting a week for a stagecheck and check ride or waiting 8 weeks for a cfi instructor. add it all together and you have 2-3 months added to your training. thats like 3-6k in living.
I think that it is time for pan am to change the "we're an airline" philosophy and adopt the "we're a school" philosophy because there is a major difference between working for an airline and going to school: you get paid while working for an airline.
also the dynamics of a learning environment are different that of a job. my training in college wasn't like my job after college. one was a optimal learning environment and the other was an optimal business and professional environment.
the simple fact is, they can't deliver 14months or less to an airline. in fact in my observation they can't deliver 10 months to complete the training. The thing is, when we all quite our jobs and moved 1/2 way accross the country, we took them at their word and planned for 10 months. oops.
I think Pan Am is going to and already has developed a negative reputation because of policies that make it hard to complete the program. and trust me, it isn't because the school weeds people out, that the training is so tough that only few can complete it. we're getting the same ratings as every other school and we are failing checkrides all over the place, it is because they don't create and environment where people tend to be successful.
it is amazing what a difference a pre flight briefing makes, it's like a pitcher in the bullpen before pitching from the mound. but the way it is scheduled there is not time. the blocks should be 2.5 hours. 1.25 flight and .5 brief. the flight instructors shouldn't get paid for pre post flight because they rarely if ever are even there, usually shooting the ---- in dispatch while you preflight.
where is the sincere committment to our success? in the short run Pan Am may profit but unless they sincerely drive to deliver on their promises, no one is going to enroll. I think management should blame themselves, their program or their instructors for student failures. It is the system that produces an 80% fail rate.
I think that it is time for pan am to change the "we're an airline" philosophy and adopt the "we're a school" philosophy because there is a major difference between working for an airline and going to school: you get paid while working for an airline.
also the dynamics of a learning environment are different that of a job. my training in college wasn't like my job after college. one was a optimal learning environment and the other was an optimal business and professional environment.
the simple fact is, they can't deliver 14months or less to an airline. in fact in my observation they can't deliver 10 months to complete the training. The thing is, when we all quite our jobs and moved 1/2 way accross the country, we took them at their word and planned for 10 months. oops.
I think Pan Am is going to and already has developed a negative reputation because of policies that make it hard to complete the program. and trust me, it isn't because the school weeds people out, that the training is so tough that only few can complete it. we're getting the same ratings as every other school and we are failing checkrides all over the place, it is because they don't create and environment where people tend to be successful.
it is amazing what a difference a pre flight briefing makes, it's like a pitcher in the bullpen before pitching from the mound. but the way it is scheduled there is not time. the blocks should be 2.5 hours. 1.25 flight and .5 brief. the flight instructors shouldn't get paid for pre post flight because they rarely if ever are even there, usually shooting the ---- in dispatch while you preflight.
where is the sincere committment to our success? in the short run Pan Am may profit but unless they sincerely drive to deliver on their promises, no one is going to enroll. I think management should blame themselves, their program or their instructors for student failures. It is the system that produces an 80% fail rate.
Let me first start by identifying myself as an FSI student.
That being said. I too have witnessed numerous Pan Am students flying to Vero and parking at Sun Aviation to come and take the tours in their uniforms. I have also spoken to numerous FSI students who left Pan Am in favor of FSI and they did not have favorable opinions of Pan Am management or the atmosphere there. I went through PPL training with a guy who left Pan Am and had to end up suing them in order to get a good portion of his money back. He said his training there was so poor and rushed that he decided to take the entire PPL ground school over again, and start the flight syllabus from the beginning despite all of the lessons he had already completed and the FAA written test he had passed. On cross countries we routinely run into Pan Am students and talk to them in the FBO's. The majority of them speak negatively of the school/training.
What Chunk is stating is not "smack" or intended to flame. It is simply observed conditions. This being said, his curiosity is justified....there is a large portion of our campus who is wondering what is happening in Ft. Pierce. Perhaps he could have put it a little more eloquently, but his curiosity is valid and that is just Chunk.
That being said. I too have witnessed numerous Pan Am students flying to Vero and parking at Sun Aviation to come and take the tours in their uniforms. I have also spoken to numerous FSI students who left Pan Am in favor of FSI and they did not have favorable opinions of Pan Am management or the atmosphere there. I went through PPL training with a guy who left Pan Am and had to end up suing them in order to get a good portion of his money back. He said his training there was so poor and rushed that he decided to take the entire PPL ground school over again, and start the flight syllabus from the beginning despite all of the lessons he had already completed and the FAA written test he had passed. On cross countries we routinely run into Pan Am students and talk to them in the FBO's. The majority of them speak negatively of the school/training.
What Chunk is stating is not "smack" or intended to flame. It is simply observed conditions. This being said, his curiosity is justified....there is a large portion of our campus who is wondering what is happening in Ft. Pierce. Perhaps he could have put it a little more eloquently, but his curiosity is valid and that is just Chunk.
chunk75
Well-Known Member
uh-oh...maybe Chunk doesn't have an ulterior motive...maybe this is a common topic in this neck of the woods...funny, all of the folks supporting Chunk go to either Pan Am or FSI and none of the people (well, maybe turk) do.
Dudes...it really was just an honest question. Maybe cime_sp was correct in saying I wasn't eloquent, but hey, that doesn't make my question inflammatory or invalid.
Chunk
Dudes...it really was just an honest question. Maybe cime_sp was correct in saying I wasn't eloquent, but hey, that doesn't make my question inflammatory or invalid.
Chunk
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Guest
Guest
(80% attrition)
Panamguy,
Go ahead ask around! I only heard from 3 separate people who heard it directly from the grand poobah, plus i heard it first hand from a ground instructor. But what do I know, I am the last man standing in my class.
Panamguy,
Go ahead ask around! I only heard from 3 separate people who heard it directly from the grand poobah, plus i heard it first hand from a ground instructor. But what do I know, I am the last man standing in my class.
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Guest
Guest
Sorry I should have clarified. 80% of the people who start at Pan Am never make it to an airline.
I thought he was saying 80% checkride failure rate, my mistake. Attrition of 80%? I don't know if it's that high, but it is high number. I'd say barely half make it past private, mostly because they can't keep up with the program or they discover they don't want to be pilots. I think it's a small minority that leave the program due to administration problems. What's the national rate for those that start but never finish their PPL?
I think my class is an anomaly, but of the 7 that I started with in my IR class: 2 got their CFIs and went back home to teach at the FBOs they got their PPLs at, one went back to his home country because his visa ran out, one decided to quit after ME due to personal reasons, and 3 of us are almost finished with the program.
I think my class is an anomaly, but of the 7 that I started with in my IR class: 2 got their CFIs and went back home to teach at the FBOs they got their PPLs at, one went back to his home country because his visa ran out, one decided to quit after ME due to personal reasons, and 3 of us are almost finished with the program.
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Guest
Guest
I posted this earlier but it didn't take. sorry, i will clarify 80% will never make it to the airlines.
ok, sorry im no rocket scientist, but do you mean 80% of people that go to pan am will not make it through the whole program and go to the airlines. If so, who could have possibly told you that? No matter what school you go to, probably 97% of people arent going to the airlines, right now that is. Please clarify. Thanks
In that case 80% actually seems a little low. I don't think any school keeps track of these numbers and if they do you certaintly won't see it printed in those glossy marketing pamphlets. As a comparison of the 18 guys in my original private class at FSI (2.5 years ago) I am the only one who finished the entire program and became an instructor here. What happened to the other 17? Who knows.........
AirborneMedic_ANGa10
New Member
I did most of my instrument training at a large 4-year university aviation program and those numbers sound low. They figure that only 10% of those who start actually get their PPL! Of those who finish the private, only 1 in 3 will do the IR...of course the people who get to that point generally finish everything else.
CLR4ILS
Well-Known Member
I have to come to Chunks defense on the Pan-Am students touring Flight Safety. Five to seven not only toured FSA a few weeks ago but actually left Pan-Am and signed up at FSA. A few of them were in the MIDDLE of their CFI training. From what I was told they were tired of the management at Pan-Am constantly ripping them off. I toured the Pan-Am facility out in phoenix. For those of you who don't know me, I had first completed the CIME program at Flight Safety and had to relocate to Phoenix for my wifes job. When I toured Pan-Am out there for my CFI ratings the only impression that I got from them was that they only wanted my money and that they did not have a very organized program. This does not surprise me since the head of academics out there is Brad Katherines who helped run Westwind into the ground with lawsuits over money in the late 90's and 2001. What I do know from various sources in Phoenix is that Pan-Am is so far in the RED that they may not be able to climb out. Why do you think they now make EVERY STUDENT complete the Route and ACE program that used to be optional? Pan-Am also has six or so brand new Pipers that have been parked on the ramp at Piper for months that they cannot afford to pick up. Since that Scary tour at Pan-Am my wife took an LOA from Intel in Phoenix so I could come back to Flight Safety. Another good decision on my part. It will be interesting to see if Pan-Am is still in business next year. ILS
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