Owner Mentality

What would you do if they didn't allow you to use their airplanes? How many people have you recruited and brought in as opposed to people that walk in the door(like this guy)?

As a CFI, I agree that your services deserve proper compensation, but if they have instructors as their "employees," then they have the right to tell you that. If you aren't their employee, they really are giving you an opportunity to make money, you aren't keeping them in business. It sucks but that's the reality. Again I'm with you, but I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Edit* I was getting a little lost in your post, so if I'm responding incorrectly let me know. That's just what I took from it.


Yeah, I know my post kind of rambled, sorry about that. The way I look at it is the whole contractor thing. You would have to know the reputation of the buisness to understand the "why" of the post. Short version, they only treated their instructors like employee's when it suited their needs, and like contractors when that suited their needs. I did bring a few of my own students in while I was working there, and I picked up a few while I was working there. Even still, it's a two way street. I had to provide all my own insurance, and pay for all my own checkouts. In a situation like that, I am basically being "pimped" out. They (flight school) only has the overhead of maintaining the airplane. At that point, they are still makeing money from the hourly rate, so I am of no cost to them. I don't mind that, but treat me as such, not just when it's convenient.

When it is costing me money to work at your buisness, I am no longer an employee, I am a contractor, and expect to be allowed to do outside work without haveing to OK it with the boss. And when someone walks in who owns their own airplane, and you piss them off so bad that they walk out the door, not only is that bad because they will never be back, but it trickles down hill as well. Reputation is everything in this buisness. And a bad one gets you nowhere fast.

Question: If you owned your own airplane, say a Comanche, would you pay to rent an airplane, a tired 172 to get an IPC/FR?
 
Ok, that cleared a lot up. As for paying for your own insurance, etc. I completely understand where you are coming from. Good for you for sticking up for yourself.

As far as requiring them to use their airplanes, a couple things come to mind. 1. It's business, just another way to get more money. 2. Insurance, my old school dropped the coverage in another persons airplane because it was so expensive(never once paid the monthly premium off). They just made everyone use their airplanes, it really did make more sense and when we explained it to people they were all cool with it. Although you have to provide your own insurance so I'm not sure.

I understand what you mean by just understanding the company and how they operate. I was an actual employee of my school, so a lot of this stuff never happened to me. If you aren't an employee and do pretty much everything for yourself, then I don't blame you one bit. As far as I'm concerned, it's a 50/50 trade when you are a contract CFI at a school like that. You did nothing wrong and they definately shouldn't have started holding stuff against you.
 
Question: If you owned your own airplane, say a Comanche, would you pay to rent an airplane, a tired 172 to get an IPC/FR?
Heck no. And if someone tried to get me to, I would:
-Laugh in their face
-Walk out the door
-Take my money to another place.
 
I can understand and sympathize with the employers problem when an employee leaves shortly after starting. Its difficult to flush out a benefit from high turnover, particularily if you feel that you've "invested" a great deal of time/money/effort in developing the new employee. Of course this requires a bit of a caveat..if your input consists of a checkout flight paid for by the prospective CFI, a five minute speil about how the last CFI "screwed over" the school so now the pay is $9/hr for the first six months and handing them a I9 forms to fill out so they can pay thier own taxes then it seems a bit misplaced to expect much loyalty whatsoever.

I've seen more flight school owners than not display a sense of entitlement over employees labor based on the idea that they are "allowing" the instructor to build hours.

The most confusing to me however how many times Ive heard echoed the tale of the instructor who stuck around. He didn't cut and run at the first job offer that popped up on Findapilot. He was there even on bad weather days. He filled in at dispatch, put together a ground school package, brought in new students. His experience has saved your butt, a student, an airframe more than once. He can't even remember all the other instructors who have come and gone but he knows every student, even the ones he's never flown with. Being a "senior instructor" hasn't brought much of a pay raise, if at all. Maybe he even accepted a pay decrease! but by now you've given him the access code to the office copier, trust him to drive your car to be detailed and once you bought pizza for lunch. He (or she of course) has been an all around professional and acted at all times under the notion that your sucess and his are intertwined.

A year and a half later he asks if you would write a recommendation or you hear about an interview he is hoping to get. He has given his all and really hasn't asked for much before. You fire him that afternoon and on the drive home you are already practicing what you'll tell the next interviewee about how important pilot development is to you and how much you want to see them succeed.

There are bad apples on both sides of the fence. I've seen more than one former instructor screw over the owner of my flight school, who I consider to be a great guy. For instance, the owner put one guy on a base salary of $10,000/year, with an hourly rate of $10/hour on top of that. Sounds like decent deal, right? Know what the instructor did? Worked about half as hard as he used to, including taking three weeks off in a row. My boss paid him about $3,000 for doing practically nothing.

Another instructor was hired to fly for a charter company. Before leaving, he screwed up the paperwork on--get this--*three* customers' 8710 checkride forms simply because he didn't care anymore. He didn't care that he was ripping off customers or tarnishing the school's reputation. It was all about him. He'd gotten what he wanted, so nobody else mattered. In the worst case of those three, the owner of the school provided a significant amount (read: about 20 hours) of free instruction to the customer in order to patch up the relationship, thanks to our former instructor.


Before I started working for my boss, I was a freelance instructor charging $45/hour. When he approached me with a job offer, he said he'd start me at $18/hour, but I could expect more if I did a good job. I told him that was a big pay cut. He asked me what it would be worth to have an office, phone line, web site, nice aircraft, online scheduling, marketing, and insurance provided. I saw his point. I took the job.

I beat the bushes for clients right and left. I hung around the office, designed marketing material, followed up with prospective students, and generally worked hard. Before I had a chance to ask for a raise the owner bumped my pay to $20/hour.

I kept working hard. A couple months later my pay went to $22/hour.

I kept working hard. The owner asked me to become a manager. Now I make about $30k/year, set my own schedule, have every weekend off, and love my job.


From my limited experience, good help is hard to find. It's difficult to find an instructor with the perfect blend of technical skills, social skills, business skills, and work ethic. Every instructor *thinks* they have it, but I'd say less than 10% of instructors *really* have it.

When it comes to flight school ownership/management, there are plenty of sleezy places like you described, but there are also plenty of really awesome places. The problem is that the really awesome places don't get recognized very often because it's so much easier for a person to complain than to praise.

As with any business relationship, if both sides recognize the value of the other and are willing to compromise, things usually work out great. It's when one side gets selfish, narrow-minded, or unwilling to compromise that things turn for the worse.
 
...A couple months later my pay went to $22/hour.

I kept working hard. The owner asked me to become a manager. Now I make about $30k/year...
This could be that new math stuff, but wouldn't that be another pay cut?

$22*40*52=x

Solve for x?

-mini
 
22 a hour for flight instruction. I doubt he gave 40 hours a week all 52 weeks of the year. Figure maybe given 1000 dual for the year and hes only making 22k. So the 30k is a increase.
 
:laff:

But I doubt he was billing 40 hours per week as a CFI. "Working hard" probably means "not paid for all time at the airport."

22 a hour for flight instruction. I doubt he gave 40 hours a week all 52 weeks of the year. Figure maybe given 1000 dual for the year and hes only making 22k. So the 30k is a increase.
While I'd agree that unless you're really hustling, you're not billing 40*52, I'd think that a flight school manager wouldn't be paid just as billed. That's been my experience anyway. Certainly paid for billed hours, but there's more to managing a flight school than just teaching.

-mini
 
I guess that makes sense. Bill say 800-1000 hours + an hourly/weekly/monthly fee for management duties. Disregard...it is that new fangled math.

Damn kids with your rock 'n roll...

-mini
 
Question: If you owned your own airplane, say a Comanche, would you pay to rent an airplane, a tired 172 to get an IPC/FR?

I might do that as a pilot, however I think it would be at the very least unethical for an instructor to do a flight review in a 172 for a guy who'll primarily be flying a hi-performance, complex airplane.
 
The most confusing to me however how many times Ive heard echoed the tale of the instructor who stuck around. He didn't cut and run at the first job offer that popped up on Findapilot. He was there even on bad weather days. He filled in at dispatch, put together a ground school package, brought in new students. His experience has saved your butt, a student, an airframe more than once. He can't even remember all the other instructors who have come and gone but he knows every student, even the ones he's never flown with. Being a "senior instructor" hasn't brought much of a pay raise, if at all. Maybe he even accepted a pay decrease! but by now you've given him the access code to the office copier, trust him to drive your car to be detailed and once you bought pizza for lunch. He (or she of course) has been an all around professional and acted at all times under the notion that your sucess and his are intertwined.

A year and a half later he asks if you would write a recommendation or you hear about an interview he is hoping to get. He has given his all and really hasn't asked for much before. You fire him that afternoon and on the drive home you are already practicing what you'll tell the next interviewee about how important pilot development is to you and how much you want to see them succeed.
Replace "Write a recommendation" with "let him take time off to get married" and "fire him that afternoon" with "tell him to submit a resignation" and you have my situation earlier this year.

Motherers.
 
I guess that makes sense. Bill say 800-1000 hours + an hourly/weekly/monthly fee for management duties. Disregard...it is that new fangled math.

Damn kids with your rock 'n roll...

-mini

When I was making $22/hour, I was actually billing more like 1,200 hours/year as nothing more than a regular staff instructor. But I was also working 6 days/week at all hours of the day and night.

Now my pay consists of a base salary for managing, hourly pay for teaching, and commission for every hour the other instructors bill (as an incentive for me to keep recruiting new business and keep the other instructors busy). I work less and get paid more. I think it's a fair deal for both myself and the owner.
 
Replace "Write a recommendation" with "let him take time off to get married" and "fire him that afternoon" with "tell him to submit a resignation" and you have my situation earlier this year.

Motherers.

I sincerely hope you walked.
 
No reason CFI's don't make this:

CFI: 25K / Decent Health-care / 401k matching / 1.5 hrs prof flying a month paid for / 40-44 hrs a week

upgrade to 30k as assistant chief
upgrade to 35k as chief flight instructor

5 days paid off starting after a year...

No excuse. Don't give me the I'm hurting as a business if I pay this the company will go out of business bs.
 
CFI: 25K / Decent Health-care / 401k matching / 1.5 hrs prof flying a month paid for / 40-44 hrs a week

upgrade to 30k as assistant chief
upgrade to 35k as chief flight instructor

5 days paid off starting after a year...

That's reasonable.

No excuse. Don't give me the I'm hurting as a business if I pay this the company will go out of business bs.

I agree........sort of. Your philosophy works great in a company that is running strong and has plenty of revenue coming in.

But a business has to be profitable to be able to afford to pay employees good wages.

How does it become profitable? By the employees doing good quality work.

It's a circular cycle.

If an employee comes at their job with the attitude of, "I want a raise. Where will that money for my raise come from? I need to worker harder/more efficiently/bring in more revenue for the company," then that's totally reasonable. If they're helping grow the company, they should be rewarded for it.

If an employee comes at their job with an attitude of, "I want a raise. I deserve a raise. What will the company do without me? I'm a professional. I'm awesome. Give me more money!" then...well...good luck. Sometimes it's reasonable, sometimes it's not.

Unfortunately I've seen more of the latter than the former.
 
If an employee comes at their job with an attitude of, "I want a raise. I deserve a raise. What will the company do without me? I'm a professional. I'm awesome. Give me more money!" then...well...good luck. Sometimes it's reasonable, sometimes it's not.

Unfortunately I've seen more of the latter than the former.

I agree that it is a circle, but it must start somewhere. How can an employee expect to work hard for the company if the company treats them like sub-standard work? We get paid less then minimum wage in most cases and I just am tired of hearing it from management. I am a professional and a deserve a fair wage. If I have a fair wage and would be more then willing to bust my ass for the job.
 
I agree that it is a circle, but it must start somewhere. How can an employee expect to work hard for the company if the company treats them like sub-standard work? We get paid less then minimum wage in most cases and I just am tired of hearing it from management. I am a professional and a deserve a fair wage. If I have a fair wage and would be more then willing to bust my ass for the job.

I can answer that question: it starts with the employee, period. The employee controls their own destiny. That might mean working harder, or it might mean walking away, but it's in the employee's control in either case.

Money doesn't appear out of thin air. It's generated by the business. Employees are on the front line of "making it happen" for the business. If money doesn't come in (revenue) how is it going to go out (payroll)?

One could argue that the initial investors in the business need to provide enough startup capital to pay a fair wage in order to attract talent that will get the ball rolling. That's a valid point. However, it's only good for the first few months, or maybe few years of the business.

After a business is established, it's up to the employees to keep it alive. Your boss might sign your paychecks, but he's not your real boss. Your real bosses are the customers who use your services. Without them, you're toast. Keep them happy and they'll funnel enough money in to the business that you'll be able to get a raise.

This is why my boss and I get along so well. We see perfectly eye to eye on this issue. I know the only way I'm going to get paid more is to help create an awesome business. If we're profitable, there's more money in the pot, and I'm not afraid to ask for some of it. If we lose money and go under, it doesn't matter how good I am, I'm still going to be out of a job.

When you go to ask for a raise, you've *got* to bring some kind of tangible reason why you deserve a raise. How many new customers did you bring in? How many hours did you bill out? How did you help the company grow?

Why must you frame it in these terms? Because that's the way bosses think. They can't hand out money just because they feel like it. They have to see how you're helping the bottom line.

If you go to your boss and say you want a raise because of a nebulous reason like, "I'm a professional," you're not going to get it. I'm not saying you're not a professional or that you don't deserve it. I'm only saying you need a tangible reason. Otherwise it begs the question, "Were you not a professional when you started here and accepted this pay?"

Now, if you bring solid reasons to the table that prove how valuable you are to the company, yet still don't get a raise, that might be the time to walk. Find a different employer who sees the value you bring. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.
 
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