Owner Mentality

That's why I'm working as an A&P now.

Glad and sorry to hear that at the same time...it's definitely a shame, and hard to do especially in the recent job market, but kudos for taking a stand for yourself. No sense in sticking around once you discover you're that unappreciated and undervalued by an employer - it'll just continue to get worse from there anyway.
 
I can answer that question: it starts with the employee, period. The employee controls their own destiny. That might mean working harder, or it might mean walking away, but it's in the employee's control in either case.

Money doesn't appear out of thin air. It's generated by the business. Employees are on the front line of "making it happen" for the business. If money doesn't come in (revenue) how is it going to go out (payroll)?

One could argue that the initial investors in the business need to provide enough startup capital to pay a fair wage in order to attract talent that will get the ball rolling. That's a valid point. However, it's only good for the first few months, or maybe few years of the business.

After a business is established, it's up to the employees to keep it alive. Your boss might sign your paychecks, but he's not your real boss. Your real bosses are the customers who use your services. Without them, you're toast. Keep them happy and they'll funnel enough money in to the business that you'll be able to get a raise.

This is why my boss and I get along so well. We see perfectly eye to eye on this issue. I know the only way I'm going to get paid more is to help create an awesome business. If we're profitable, there's more money in the pot, and I'm not afraid to ask for some of it. If we lose money and go under, it doesn't matter how good I am, I'm still going to be out of a job.

When you go to ask for a raise, you've *got* to bring some kind of tangible reason why you deserve a raise. How many new customers did you bring in? How many hours did you bill out? How did you help the company grow?

Why must you frame it in these terms? Because that's the way bosses think. They can't hand out money just because they feel like it. They have to see how you're helping the bottom line.

If you go to your boss and say you want a raise because of a nebulous reason like, "I'm a professional," you're not going to get it. I'm not saying you're not a professional or that you don't deserve it. I'm only saying you need a tangible reason. Otherwise it begs the question, "Were you not a professional when you started here and accepted this pay?"

Now, if you bring solid reasons to the table that prove how valuable you are to the company, yet still don't get a raise, that might be the time to walk. Find a different employer who sees the value you bring. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

Excellent post, IMHO. We can argue all day the chicken or the egg question of which comes first, good pay or good employees. But at the end of the day, when it comes to asking for more money, this is exactly the way a true professional needs to think about the situation.
 

Why would an employee bust there ass for an employer that doesn't care for them at the entry level? You want me to bust my ass then pay me fair NOW. Not later when I bring you more customers. At that point you can give me a raise ON TOP of my already fair salary not ontop of a BELOW POVERTY LEVEL salary.

25k should be the very bottom of the barrel, entry level, not 10k.
 
Why would an employee bust there ass for an employer that doesn't care for them at the entry level? You want me to bust my ass then pay me fair NOW. Not later when I bring you more customers. At that point you can give me a raise ON TOP of my already fair salary not ontop of a BELOW POVERTY LEVEL salary.

25k should be the very bottom of the barrel, entry level, not 10k.

Why did you agree to work for your employer at the current pay scale? That's a serious question, not rhetorical.

If you're really that unhappy with it, you should go somewhere else.

What reason does your employer have to pay you better? How do *you* benefit *them*? Again, completely serious questions, not rhetorical at all.

Because from your boss's perspective, he probably sees an instructor working just enough to get by. There's no reason to reward that. There's nothing in it for your boss. Paying you better would only mean more money flowing out of the company without any guarantee of money flowing in. He'd be investing in an unknown opportunity. How many investors throw their money at mediocre companies, hoping they'll improve? Not many. It's too risky.

On the other hand, if you start busting your ass and are obviously the best instructor there--most hours billed, customers talking about how good you are, etc...then your boss is going to think, "Ok, this jhugz guy is worth having around. He's making me money. I've got to figure out a way to keep him from bouncing at the first chance he gets."


You can keep doing whatever you're doing, but I'm just laying it out from the employer's perspective. Take it or leave it, this is how it is.
 
Both of you guys have good arguments. I think, though, they need to be fused. Jhugz is right that the STARTING wages a cfi earns need to be better. At least livable. The way it is now is very much a joke. A new CFI may very well start out all motivated and ass busting. But give it a couple months of 400 dollar pay checks and I can see how resignation sets in.

I do think raises and promotions should be performance based. You make me more money, you get a bigger slice of it. What I am talking about is not a raise though but a overhaul of how instructors are treated. Give me a guarantee 18k a year with bonuses and that would make instructing leaps and bounds better, and more peeps might consider instructing long term.
 
Glad and sorry to hear that at the same time...it's definitely a shame, and hard to do especially in the recent job market, but kudos for taking a stand for yourself. No sense in sticking around once you discover you're that unappreciated and undervalued by an employer - it'll just continue to get worse from there anyway.
Yeah. There's more to it than that (it's a 141 college program, wedding during the semester) but still. I'd already passed up another career opportunity to stay on with them a year, top or near the top in billed hours every month, great reviews from students, toed the line on company policies and rules, didn't do any dumb stuff (like land with 10 minutes of fuel remaining after failing to double-check a student's reading of the fuel gages), blah blah blah, and all I got was a "see ya later, good luck on the job hunt".
 
Both of you guys have good arguments. I think, though, they need to be fused. Jhugz is right that the STARTING wages a cfi earns need to be better. At least livable. The way it is now is very much a joke. A new CFI may very well start out all motivated and ass busting. But give it a couple months of 400 dollar pay checks and I can see how resignation sets in.

Good point. And this is where flight school owners have the responsibility to recognize good employees early on. Some do, some don't.

I do think raises and promotions should be performance based. You make me more money, you get a bigger slice of it. What I am talking about is not a raise though but a overhaul of how instructors are treated. Give me a guarantee 18k a year with bonuses and that would make instructing leaps and bounds better, and more peeps might consider instructing long term.

I still go back to the question of, "Where does the money come from?" though. When a person is writing a business plan, to be able to guarantee $25k/year pay to an employee, they also have to be certain they'll be able to generate $X/year revenue. There are a lot of uncertainties from the business owner's perspective. What if the economy heads south? What if there is unexpectedly poor weather for long periods of time? Most importantly, what if the instructor doesn't do a good job? It doesn't take long for an instructor who is overly conservative about weather, isn't flexible on the schedule, doesn't have good customer service skills, etc. to REALLY drag a business down. Reference my earlier post on the instructor who got paid $3000 for doing practically nothing. It takes a long time for a flight school to recover a $3000 loss.

This is why so many flight schools pay an hourly wage. It minimizes risk. If the flight school is only obligated to pay a percentage of revenue generated, it places the burden of responsibility on the instructor. When the school pays a salary, they take on the majority of the risk if things don't work out well. If the school is a large operation with 20 instructors, they have a little more flexibility to take the risk of paying salaries because the business is more stable and predictable as a whole. Smaller operations with only a few instructors can't afford this risk. One bad apple can spoil the whole operation.

I think the main reason I've been successful working my way up the system as an instructor is because I have a ton of little tricks that add up to billing a lot more time per month than other instructors.

I take the time to do thorough ground briefings, and I bill for all my ground time. I'm comfortable teaching on really windy days (especially important in Nebraska!). If a plane goes down for maintenance, I make a useful lesson in another plane, even if the backup plane is different from the first, rather than cancel the flight. I always schedule customers for their next flight before they leave, rather than take the "I'll call you later" answer from them and don't hear from them for two weeks. If the weather is IFR, I check the cloud tops and try to teach VFR maneuvers on top. I talk about what we'll do on the next lesson, to keep them excited about flying and anxious to come out to the airport again. Etc., etc. A lot of "Savvy Flight Instructor" book stuff.

The thing is, tricks like these can make the difference between an instructor pulling their weight for the company or not. Those extra few hours billed make a huge difference in the bottom line.

Think of running a vending machine. You might buy packs of gum for $0.50 and sell them for $0.55. If you raise your rates to $0.60, you only increased your price 10%, yet you doubled your profits.

The same thing happens in flight schools. The school has to cover fixed costs, then skim some off the top for profit. An instructor might only bill out an extra 10 hours/month compared to the other instructors, but that instructor might be doubling the company's profits. Point that out to your boss, then ask for a raise.
 
I think the main reason I've been successful working my way up the system as an instructor is because I have a ton of little tricks that add up to billing a lot more time per month than other instructors.

I take the time to do thorough ground briefings, and I bill for all my ground time. I'm comfortable teaching on really windy days (especially important in Nebraska!). If a plane goes down for maintenance, I make a useful lesson in another plane, even if the backup plane is different from the first, rather than cancel the flight. I always schedule customers for their next flight before they leave, rather than take the "I'll call you later" answer from them and don't hear from them for two weeks. If the weather is IFR, I check the cloud tops and try to teach VFR maneuvers on top. I talk about what we'll do on the next lesson, to keep them excited about flying and anxious to come out to the airport again. Etc., etc. A lot of "Savvy Flight Instructor" book stuff.
Noted and stored in my memory banks for if and when I finally get this flight instructing on the weekends thing going....
 
If I have a fair wage and would be more then willing to bust my ass for the job.

So your saying that you dont bust your ass off now? If you dont than you dont deserve a raise. As jrh said it starts with the employee. Now if you work at somewhere that doesnt reconginize hard work than you should leave. But by saying I wont work hard till I get more money tells me as a employer that you dont deserve more money. Because once I pay you more you will work hard for a while than try and pull that again to get more money. Just the way I see it from running a warehouse. If the employee wont work hard me at entry level wages I have no reason to beleive they will work hard if I give them a raise. Not a attack on you just a oberservation.
 
So your saying that you dont bust your ass off now? If you dont than you dont deserve a raise. As jrh said it starts with the employee. Now if you work at somewhere that doesnt reconginize hard work than you should leave. But by saying I wont work hard till I get more money tells me as a employer that you dont deserve more money. Because once I pay you more you will work hard for a while than try and pull that again to get more money. Just the way I see it from running a warehouse. If the employee wont work hard me at entry level wages I have no reason to beleive they will work hard if I give them a raise. Not a attack on you just a oberservation.

No I don't bust my ass for a 10k a year job. Absolutely not. I bust my ass for my students and don't short change them because I know that isn't how I want to be treated. I do however do nothing extra in terms of helping out around the office and helping management. If they don't respect me enough to pay me more then poverty level wages then I don't respect them enough to bust my ass for the job.
 
What it seems like is there is a failure for either side to compromise and meet in the middle. Jhugz I really do see where you are coming from and agree completely, but at the same time I know I would have a hard time justifying giving someone more money who just skims in with the minimum. Supporters of both sides of the argument need to give a little.

Boss wants me to work in the office answering the phone and selling sectionals? Fine, pay me for that time.

You need me to fly a mx flight? done again. Pay me for it.

Or if you don't want to pay me for those things i'll do them, but guarantee me 5 hours of flight pay a week...that's flight PAY...not flight TIME.

Right now the situation is "You will get paid only for flying and work 35 hours in the office and like it." That's unfair. However, it also might be kind of unfair to expect 30k a year from a flight school that may legitimately not be able to afford that.

You don't have to make my wildest dream come true...just offer me some incentive. And no free flight time is not an incentive. Last I checked Oklahoma Gas and Electric doesn't accept payment of Cessna 150 flight time in my log book.
 
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