Ok, which one of you guys...

I was told about this accident today because of some extra curricular activities.

The lesson here...

DO NOT TRUST MU RATINGS!

It will be seen VERY early it was NOT the pilots fault.
 
In just about every document I read anymore it specifically says not to rely on mu readings. It makes you wonder why they even report them if you are not to trust them!
 
So we'd rather have 1-2 minutes added to the taxi than having our faces planted into the seat back in front of us? I think it's a lose-lose either way. You're gonna get people complaining about both.

One thing at PCL to consider is how we're paid. If we're running 12 minutes late, we might as well roll long. Might actually get PAID for that extra time instead of slamming on the brakes, rushing to the gate and blocking in. Then we just flew 12-15 minutes for free. Wanna see the ultimate screw job? Check NWA's new agreement. They get block or WHATEVER THE FLY. Basically, if they're early, they screw themselves on the pay. Which is why in DTW the other day, every NWA mainline plane I saw was de-icing. No snow. No ice, but it was cold and cloudy.

Lloyd, love ya like a brother, but I think you're taking this a little too far. In the Dr response, if someone asked "Is it gonna hurt" in that example, I'd think they were joking. If they got offended b/c the Dr said "Oh, that's a good one." or "Duh!" well, then, they need to grow a thicker skin. I had a guy reaming me a new one the other day saying he was gonna miss his flight and why we were late. "Sir, we were scheduled to get here at 8:30." Him "Yes, and it's a good bit after that isn't it? I want a refund." Me: "Sir, please look at your watch." Him: "It's 9:15!" Me: "Yes, sir. In Charlotte, NC. We're in Memphis, TN. It's 8:15 here. We're 15 minutes early. I'm sure you'll have enough time to make your connect." Him: "Whatever" <storms off> It's a lot different when your cargo talks back to you on a daily basis. When those eyeballs you're hauling in the back start talking about how they're gonna go bad if you don't speed up the Baron.....well, call me, cause I wanna know what you're smoking. :)
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Is it really lacking in common sense?

You go to the doctor and (s)he says, "Mr. Joel, you have a tumor in your brain, and we're going to get it out". You reply, "Is this going to hurt?". Now, if the Dr. said, "Mr. Joel, that's such a petty question . . . ", you'd feel that he was out of line, wouldn't you?
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Ok, this is turning into a thread hijack. :) But:

That is a good analogy, and it is something I would ABSOLUTELY ask! However, I would not get irate towards the doctor. That is the difference with the airline passenger.

The airline passenger is the one who stands up and yells about a five minute delay. "My aunt's cousin's brother's dog's mom is in (Insert City Here), and they say the weather is PEACHY! No wonder you are in bankruptcy!!"

Now, you and I know it is en route weather, weather earlier in the day, just O'Hare, etc. Does the public know that? No, and that is fine. (Just like me if the tumor is going to hurt) The difference is the attitude. The difference is the attitude...
 
higney85 said:
It wasn't me.. but I am curious as to what happened.. I won't even speculate on who was up front, the weather sucked, a shorter runway compared to MOST of the places we go into, at night (actually early morning- even worse)... Time will tell
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Great post,
Let's wait and see what happened before we start judging the flight crew or their decisions. It's alot easier to judge a situation when you don't know all the facts, however it isn't very professional.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
I'm not arguing about which type of landing is better for the passengers . . . just noting the fact that passenger opinions are often glazed over by much "smarter, more aviation-savvy" pilots!:sarcasm:
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I think all that you are arguing about is a difference in technique.
I don't think pilots should be overally critical of one pilot's or flight crew's technique.
 
kellwolf said:
]Check NWA's new agreement. They get block or WHATEVER THE FLY. Basically, if they're early, they screw themselves on the pay. Which is why in DTW the other day, every NWA mainline plane I saw was de-icing. No snow. No ice, but it was cold and cloudy.
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Interesting. Just think - NWA (the company) might make out on a few flights with the pilots being under block, but my guess is most of their pilots are so p/o'd at the management that they are doing just what you say - extending as much as possible. And it's not the extra $50 they might pay the pilots if they were underblock that is gonna put 'em under, it's the $4,000/flight in extra costs that will go with taxiing slow, flying slow, deicing, extra gas, APU on all the time etc.

We had a mainline US Air guy in our jumpseat the other day - he was talking about how the pilots there don't ever single engine taxi, they keep the APU on for transcons, and always fly lower and slower than filed just to "stick it to the man", all the while burning up money like it grew on trees.

Then you look at SWA pilots, going the extra mile for the company.

Interesting.
 
Seggy said:
I was told about this accident today because of some extra curricular activities.

The lesson here...

DO NOT TRUST MU RATINGS!

It will be seen VERY early it was NOT the pilots fault.
Click to expand...


Okay, then how would you assess the situation captain?
Colgan's FOPP requires the use of refrencing MU Ratings and comparing them to observed crosswind component on landing.
Based on the braking action and winds, the PIC will make the determination if a safe landing will be made.

So my question to you is that if you don't trust the MU ratings, what basis will you use to determine if a safe landing can be made?
(Keep in mind if you decide to divert you will need to explain and justify you actions to company)
 
AmazingPilot said:
Okay, then how would you assess the situation captain?
Colgan's FOPP requires the use of refrencing MU Ratings and comparing them to observed crosswind component on landing.
Based on the braking action and winds, the PIC will make the determination if a safe landing will be made.

So my question to you is that if you don't trust the MU ratings, what basis will you use to determine if a safe landing can be made?
(Keep in mind if you decide to divert you will need to explain and justify you actions to company)
Click to expand...


How do you know the MU sensor is not broken and a good MU rating is given when braking is NIL? How long ago was the MU taken? When did the last airplane land? How much snow is on the runway? What treatments have been put down? Would the airport authority 'fudge' the numbers a little so they don't have a canceled flight count against the airport. Those are a few I can think of in about five seconds.

Seriously dude, I KNOW what happened last night in TVC. The pilots are NOT at fault.
 
Northwest made the decision a few years ago to take mainline flights out of TVC during the winters. After a DC-9 overrun, the flight safety department concluded that the airports winter operations were not to its standards and they yanked the DC-9 flights.

I worked with the guy who helped make the decision and did discuss the event with him one time, and there were some sketchy ways of measuring braking action at this airport that no pilot would be happy with.

That was then; this event could be completely different, or not. I guess we'll find out.
 
Seggy said:
How do you know the MU sensor is not broken and a good MU rating is given when braking is NIL? How long ago was the MU taken? When did the last airplane land? How much snow is on the runway? What treatments have been put down? Would the airport authority 'fudge' the numbers a little so they don't have a canceled flight count against the airport. Those are a few I can think of in about five seconds.

Seriously dude, I KNOW what happened last night in TVC. The pilots are NOT at fault.
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I never said they were at fault, all I said is we don't know all the details so it would be foolhardy to through blame and accusations around.
In questionable conditions, the Captain can request a MU reading.

There can be hundreds of reasons why the MU readout maybe inaccurate, unfortunately as PIC you do not have the time or resources to have the FAA come down to the airport inspect the equipment, determine it's safe, verify the operators' credentials, and certify the MU reading will be accurate. You need to trust that the ATC facilities are doing their job.
If tower clears you to land you trust it.
If center clears you to an altitude or heading, you trust it.
If clearance delivery issues you a clearance, you trust it.
You copy down the ATIS, and you trust it.
By all means if you have a question then ask, but a flight crew needs to trust the facilities on the ground.
 
Seggy said:
The lesson here...

DO NOT TRUST MU RATINGS!
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, true. Was the Mu-Meter dragged along the same part of the runway as where the aircraft will be braking? Was it dragged over contamination at speeds similar to that of an aircraft (e.g., hydroplaning?). There's potential for a good system, but uniform reporting is not there yet.

By the same token, braking action reports are subjective. Some pilots don't want to bone the company traffic behind them by shutting things down by reporting marginally POOR braking ... so MODERATE it is... (or maybe they they thought they touched down long and were slow on the deceleration, so it seemed seemed poor).
 
Fly4Pay said:
Originally Posted by Kingairer
My company doenst want us using reverse thrust unless its necessary, I just deem it necessary on every landing :) .






Their?????

innaccurate????



clearence?????
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So when are they changing the name of this website to from JET CAREERS.com to GRAMMAR CAREERS.com?
:yup:
 
NJA_Capt said:
It drives me nuts to ride in the back and watch guys roll to the end of a 9000-10,000 foot (DRY) runway (and farther away from the terminal I might add).
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:yeahthat: Of course no one you know does that, but there can a surprisingly high risk of overrun from keeping the speed up until the last turnoff. Some crews can get surprised by the end of the runway (or misjudge) and really need to stop fast, except now they're jumping on the brakes with a whole lot of useless runway behind 'em.

(Not trying to say that's relevant to what occurred at TVC)
 
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