Oh RJ N00b (a PSA rant)

Isn’t one of our original members here….who hasn’t been around much for a fair number of years, a lifer there?
 
MikeD said:
Isn’t one of our original members here….who hasn’t been around much for a fair number of years, a lifer there?
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Not that I know of. The only other Secret Decoder Ring era guy I knew of flowed AAcross a few years ago.
 
MikeD said:
MTSU? Or did I miss a memo? (I very well could have missed one’s moving on/up)
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Some people here gave him crap for being a regional lifer. Then he left this site. Recently(ish) he checked in with a hello post.

Don’t know why people gave him crap. I always remembered mtsu_av8er , he was the one with a display pic of a guy in a black dress doing that dance move gif.
 
BobDDuck said:
Two things...

A company that invests that amount of time and money in a pilot isn't going to cut them loose just because they fail an LOE. There is, obviously more to the story.
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Yes and no. This is a training department that makes a incredibly stupid LOE event. Why the hell would a company create an LOE event into LGA (expressway visual 31) and DCA (LDA or RV 19) for pilots that have never been to these airports and never flown at jet speeds. They have also never flown proper arrivals and the seat support is not allowed to help them. From what understand they have a first time 50% failure rate. While I was still on property only 80% of new hires made it to the line.

The training department isn't there for training. It exists for checking events. This also applies to CQ LOEs as well where they make incredibly convoluted scenarios. When would IAD only have a single LOC approach and nothing else thus forcing a LDA Z 19 into DCA?

Usually there is more to the story as you said, but the LOE they created for an initial qual is incredibly stupid. If anyone had any other hickups in training this LOE profile can easily be the end of the road for them and it is t entirely their fault at that point.


To be fair, there are good guys in the training department that know what they are doing and do it well. Management and the FAA have been the biggest problems. Supposedly the FAA issue is now gone at least.

BobDDuck said:
The APD who's name had to be edited out was hired about a year before I was in 2005. He was a check pilot the last few years I was there. We're still FB friends, but I can see new hires having an issue with him, especially with the potential age difference there is now.
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Said APD certainly has a reputation. I had him for a KV and other than some odd lines of questioning (circle approaches, who cares in 121?) he was fair.

From what I have been told he has mellowed out quite a bit so I don't see a reason for him to be name dropped other than because of the rumors spread in the training department in Dayton.

I have seen some of his failures where I definitely said "yeah that should have been a debrief item" but not everyone is perfect.

bimmerphile said:
probably more to the story. “I failed for something I was taught but I wasn’t prepared for LOE after one loft”
I don’t remember having more than one loft any time in training ever. read the damn manuals and don’t give them a reason to fail you
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First time guys at an airline may not understand how that works and are impressionable. Especially when "cooperate and graduate" is preached in Dayton. I do know some instructors have a tendency to go off script and force their students to do stuff that is against procedure. Especially if they have the mindset of "my last carrier did it better."

I don't know if it still occurs but prior to covid the Dayton training department was full of instructors that had failed out of the training program they now teach.
 
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I spent just over 8 years in training department at PSA. The training department was always set up so if someone experienced a failure they should not be checked by the same Check Airman or APD who conducted the first oral/checkride. It's been 7 years since I left, but I can't imagine it would be any different today. So my take is the person who posted this left out quite a few details.

I can think of what training was like when I went through and how things were when I left. It became much easier and the company was much more willing to give extra training. If a student worked hard, had a positive attitude, and was trainable they wanted you to be successful.
 
Maurus said:
Yes and no. This is a training department that makes a incredibly stupid LOE event. Why the hell would a company create an LOE event into LGA (expressway visual 31) and DCA (LDA or RV 19) for pilots that have never been to these airports and never flown at jet speeds. They have also never flown proper arrivals and the seat support is not allowed to help them. From what understand they have a first time 50% failure rate. While I was still on property only 80% of new hires made it to the line.

The training department isn't there for training. It exists for checking events. This also applies to CQ LOEs as well where they make incredibly convoluted scenarios. When would IAD only have a single LOC approach and nothing else thus forcing a LDA Z 19 into DCA?

Usually there is more to the story as you said, but the LOE they created for an initial qual is incredibly stupid. If anyone had any other hickups in training this LOE profile can easily be the end of the road for them and it is t entirely their fault at that point.


To be fair, there are good guys in the training department that know what they are doing and do it well. Management and the FAA have been the biggest problems. Supposedly the FAA issue is now gone at least.



Said APD certainly has a reputation. I had him for a KV and other than some odd lines of questioning (circle approaches, who cares in 121?) he was fair.

From what I have been told he has mellowed out quite a bit so I don't see a reason for him to be name dropped other than because of the rumors spread in the training department in Dayton.

I have seen some of his failures where I definitely said "yeah that should have been a debrief item" but not everyone is perfect.



First time guys at an airline may not understand how that works and are impressionable. Especially when "cooperate and graduate" is preached in Dayton. I do know some instructors have a tendency to go off script and force their students to do stuff that is against procedure. Especially if they have the mindset of "my last carrier did it better."

I don't know if it still occurs but prior to covid the Dayton training department was full of instructors that had failed out of the training program they now teach.
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If you can’t fly from LGA to DCA why should you be checked out to go to line flying and fly from LGA-DCa?
 
Kingairer said:
If you can’t fly from LGA to DCA why should you be checked out to go to line flying and fly from LGA-DCa?
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You do realize it is called "training" when going through initial right? All they get trained on is maneuvers and emergencies. My current shop has three sims prior to an LOE where you get experience with some real world flying. Weird concept eh? At best they get trained for a standard visual 5 miles out. Not a turn to final at 300-500 feet AGL.

They don't train people for normal every day flying. It isn't exactly the same as a Cessna. Final approach speeds are what used to be max cruise for these guys and now they are telling them to go into a special qual airport with zero experience at that airport. They aren't even allowed to be the PF at DCA for their first 100 hours yet they have to do it in a jeopardy event with essentially zero experience.

Also on the line they have a CA that can actually help them and even show them an approach so they can see it first. Seat supports are nearly worthless depending on the examiner or support at the time. I have even had them try to trash my LOEs in the past as well going into DCA.

Ultimately the seat supports tend to just be there as gear monkeys. From a CRM standpoint it really isn't all that realistic at all and puts even more pressure on a newbie.
 
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Maurus said:
You do realize it is called "training" when going through initial right? All they get trained on is maneuvers and emergencies. My current shop has three sims prior to an LOE where you get experience with some real world flying. Weird concept eh? At best they get trained for a standard visual 5 miles out. Not a turn to final at 300-500 feet AGL.

They don't train people for normal every day flying. It isn't exactly the same as a Cessna. Final approach speeds are what used to be max cruise for these guys and now they are telling them to go into a special qual airport with zero experience at that airport. They aren't even allowed to be the PF at DCA for their first 100 hours yet they have to do it in a jeopardy event with essentially zero experience.

Also on the line they have a CA that can actually help them and even show them an approach so they can see it first. Seat supports are nearly worthless depending on the examiner or support at the time. I have even had them try to trash my LOEs in the past as well going into DCA.

Ultimately the seat supports tend to just be there as gear monkeys. From a CRM standpoint it really isn't all that realistic at all and puts even more pressure on a newbie.
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Shouldn't a new hire's seat support be....a Captain and not just a gear monkey?
 
Baronman said:
Shouldn't a new hire's seat support be....a Captain and not just a gear monkey?
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One would think. Unfortunately seat supports are instructed to not help a lot of they do at all. If an examiner believes a support is helping too much they tell them to stop and let the situation snowball. I have definitely had seat supports in the past that only do stuff when asked for entire checkrides. While it isn't as big a deal for an experienced pilot it can be for new hires.

I have flown at 4 air carriers in my career and PSA is the only one that has thrown such a curveball at new hires.

"Hey, you aren't qualified to be PF here for 100 hours in real life but you need to do it for your first checkride. Have fun!"
 
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Maurus said:
One would think. Unfortunately seat supports are instructed to not help a lot of they do at all. If an examiner believes a support is helping too much they tell them to stop and let the situation snowball. I have definitely had seat supports in the past that only do stuff when asked for entire checkrides. While it isn't as big a deal for an experienced pilot it can be for new hires.
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Seat support: 100% competent, 0% initiative. :)
 
Maurus said:
You do realize it is called "training" when going through initial right? All they get trained on is maneuvers and emergencies. My current shop has three sims prior to an LOE where you get experience with some real world flying. Weird concept eh? At best they get trained for a standard visual 5 miles out. Not a turn to final at 300-500 feet AGL.

They don't train people for normal every day flying. It isn't exactly the same as a Cessna. Final approach speeds are what used to be max cruise for these guys and now they are telling them to go into a special qual airport with zero experience at that airport. They aren't even allowed to be the PF at DCA for their first 100 hours yet they have to do it in a jeopardy event with essentially zero experience.

Also on the line they have a CA that can actually help them and even show them an approach so they can see it first. Seat supports are nearly worthless depending on the examiner or support at the time. I have even had them try to trash my LOEs in the past as well going into DCA.

Ultimately the seat supports tend to just be there as gear monkeys. From a CRM standpoint it really isn't all that realistic at all and puts even more pressure on a newbie.
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I’m not privy to PSAs training, but LOE indicates it’s an evaluation, at some point you need a gate to make sure you have someone that can hack it on the line. If they go straight from maneuvers and spots , then straight to an LOE that’s unfortunate.
 
Kingairer said:
I’m not privy to PSAs training, but LOE indicates it’s an evaluation, at some point you need a gate to make sure you have someone that can hack it on the line. If they go straight from maneuvers and spots , then straight to an LOE that’s unfortunate.
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That is what they were doing when I left. Could be different now but it was literally an evaluation with zero relevant training prior.
 
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