Oh Qatar

I think the key takeaway here is that while automation adds an incredible amount of safety to routine ops, there are pitfalls to being over reliant on it and we need to know how to do some of that pilot •.

For further reference, see "Children of the Magenta" and also Jester's briefing in Top Gun 1 about fighter jocks losing dogfighting skills because of their dependence on missiles.

Thank you for coming to my GARY Talk.
 
mikecweb said:
Were you an autopilot on at 250' and autoland every leg?
Click to expand...

I usually turned it on after accelerating to 250 and turned it off around 500 ft.

charlie1017 said:
Well got some news for ya. It seems the FAA is poised to mandate some minimum level of hand flying at air carriers. What level and how it will be implemented remains to be seen... But its coming from the Feds...
Click to expand...

Oh, I’m aware. The quintessential example of bad policy coming from faulty conclusions, and it will end up killing people needlessly.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
Proficiency in raw data hand flying should certainly be expected in initial training, and it should be brushed up on in the sim when you go back. But the primary focus should be on understanding and properly utilizing the automation. Under no circumstances should anyone be willfully flying raw data in today's day and age with paying passengers in the back.
Click to expand...
Oh Todd….

did that exact thing into JFK not too long ago on the RNAV 13L inbound from LEISA. Worked good, last long time. Promise you no one in the back knew any differently.

737 is pretty easy to handfly well, just gotta lead her a little bit.
 
roundout said:
I think the key takeaway here is that while automation adds an incredible amount of safety to routine ops, there are pitfalls to being over reliant on it and we need to know how to do some of that pilot •.

For further reference, see "Children of the Magenta" and also Jester's briefing in Top Gun 1 about fighter jocks losing dogfighting skills because of their dependence on missiles.

Thank you for coming to my GARY Talk.
Click to expand...

Ahh, yes, the old “children of the magenta line” schtick. People seem to forget that Captain Vanderburgh, who coined that term in his AAMP course back in the 90s, was highly criticized by both Boeing and Douglas test pilots in the NTSB report for the AA 587 crash because of various things he taught in that course. As far as I’m concerned, he was stuck in the past, clinging to antiquated attitudes about flying that have no place in the 21st century. The very definition of the macho hazardous attitude. “Be a real man, fly it with your hands!” Nah, learn how your airplane works. Hand flying is a crutch for boomers who can’t operate the equipment.
 
I guess my mentality bridges the gap. Understanding the automation (and using it correctly) is important a lot of the time. Busy airspace, 2 eyes looking outside is better than one. Bad weather, that’s just an obvious scenario. But I guess maybe it is unique to our shop, maybe not, but I’d say the amount of CA’s that have encouraged me to fully hand fly during a low tasking arrival/visual approach has been greater than 90%. Even F/Ds off (gasp) in some instances. Purpose being to give me a chance to get an actual feel for the airplane. I’ll say that definitely paid off when i flew a whole day of legs on an A/T inop jet. Never know when some malfunction is going to require a bit more feel for the airplane than you get in training/OE (though OE definitely started this trend). I can think of a recent trip where i hand flew a visual arrival into PSP, and that experience really showed me a particular example of what gear down, F5, and clean maneuver speed can do for you when ATC dumps you off high. Obviously not something one would do in instrument conditions, but it was cool to see her come down like the stories of 727s tell. I’m also very used to flying an airplane with no automation of any significance, so i realize this is my happy place. The real learning has been the automation, and i do equally feel that it requires a lot of skill to manage appropriately (especially in this jalopy). For all the hate, i really do like flying it, automated or otherwise.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
Ahh, yes, the old “children of the magenta line” schtick. People seem to forget that Captain Vanderburgh, who coined that term in his AAMP course back in the 90s, was highly criticized by both Boeing and Douglas test pilots in the NTSB report for the AA 587 crash because of various things he taught in that course. As far as I’m concerned, he was stuck in the past, clinging to antiquated attitudes about flying that have no place in the 21st century. The very definition of the macho hazardous attitude. “Be a real man, fly it with your hands!” Nah, learn how your airplane works. Hand flying is a crutch for boomers who can’t operate the equipment.
Click to expand...

I see deficiencies in both autoflight/VNAV understanding, and hand flying for people on the line at most airlines.

I am admittedly now a bit weaker in hand flying compared to my regional days, but I’m working on it. People should strive to be strong in both skill sets.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
Proficiency in raw data hand flying should certainly be expected in initial training, and it should be brushed up on in the sim when you go back. But the primary focus should be on understanding and properly utilizing the automation. Under no circumstances should anyone be willfully flying raw data in today's day and age with paying passengers in the back.
Click to expand...

Come on.

And what about when flying in cruise and the airplane decides LNAV and heading mode are just gonna take a vacation. Cruising a good 5 hrs into the flight. Blehh Blehh Blehh as the AP kicks off. What happened? Somehow entered CWS R (control wheel steering - roll) for the lateral mode. AP gone.

Weird.

Try to re-engage AP. No dice.

Try to re-engage LNAV, no dice. Try to engage Heading, no dice. AP again, no dice. AP on CWS, no dice.

Ok. Flight Directors off. Lets put the master back on CA side. Now engage LNAV, VNAV, AP on. VNAV takes but no lateral mode. Still no Heading or LNAV. Still no AP. Ok, Flight Directors off again. Lets put FO side as master and put the FD on again. Re-engage modes. Lateral mode doesn't take. Still no AP.

AT stayed on whole time.

But! But! In slum's world, this situation can't exist. The AP and automation is supposed to always work.



End result, continued flight under manual control after discussion with dispatch. Frankly no mood to divert to a place neither had been to before (Managua). Not too far from LIB and familiar there with nice, clear VMC conditions.

And by the way, VNAV engaged, so had one pink magenta bar for following VNAV guidance, but nothing for LNAV. No lateral guidance bar. Used the wind vector, the track on the ND, and the heading bug to keep on course - all manually. You know, fly the damn plane.


Oh the manatee!





*MCP Lockout QRH was considered but the conditions listed in the QRH didn't match lockout. No CBs pulled.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
Proficiency in raw data hand flying should certainly be expected in initial training, and it should be brushed up on in the sim when you go back. But the primary focus should be on understanding and properly utilizing the automation. Under no circumstances should anyone be willfully flying raw data in today's day and age with paying passengers in the back.
Click to expand...

While proficiency in low levels of automation is ultimate, if you're doing it for craps 'n grins, it's not a dual cross country.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Come on.

And what about when flying in cruise and the airplane decides LNAV and heading mode are just gonna take a vacation. Cruising a good 5 hrs into the flight. Blehh Blehh Blehh as the AP kicks off. What happened? Somehow entered CWS R (control wheel steering - roll) for the lateral mode. AP gone.

Weird.

Try to re-engage AP. No dice.

Try to re-engage LNAV, no dice. Try to engage Heading, no dice. AP again, no dice. AP on CWS, no dice.

Ok. Flight Directors off. Lets put the master back on CA side. Now engage LNAV, VNAV, AP on. VNAV takes but no lateral mode. Still no Heading or LNAV. Still no AP. Ok, Flight Directors off again. Lets put FO side as master and put the FD on again. Re-engage modes. Lateral mode doesn't take. Still no AP.

AT stayed on whole time.

But! But! In slum's world, this situation can't exist. The AP and automation is supposed to always work.



End result, continued flight under manual control after discussion with dispatch. Frankly no mood to divert to a place neither had been to before (Managua). Not too far from LIB and familiar there with nice, clear VMC conditions.

And by the way, VNAV engaged, so had one pink magenta bar for following VNAV guidance, but nothing for LNAV. No lateral guidance bar. Used the wind vector, the track on the ND, and the heading bug to keep on course - all manually. You know, fly the damn plane.


Oh the manatee!





*MCP Lockout QRH was considered but the conditions listed in the QRH didn't match lockout. No CBs pulled.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, did you ever find out what the underlying problem was? In this world, that sounds a bit spicy :)

<—- [creepiest voice imaginable] “daddy like!”
 
///AMG said:
Out of curiosity, did you ever find out what the underlying problem was? In this world, that sounds a bit spicy :)
Click to expand...

On approach, APP mode did take LOC and GS. So getting LOC was the first lateral mode back on and working. Contract MX did some work and reset(s?) done for the FCC and MCP. MX guy the next day said they were up til 3am fixing the problem and signing off (landed at about 10pm). Not sure, probably some electrical failure inside the FCC/MCP for the lateral mode.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
On approach, APP mode did take LOC and GS. So getting LOC was the first lateral mode back on and working. Contract MX did some work and reset(s?) done for the FCC and MCP. MX guy the next day said they were up til 3am fixing the problem and signing off (landed at about 10pm). Not sure, probably some electrical failure inside the FCC/MCP for the lateral mode.
Click to expand...

So probably some FMS cough/fart?
 
///AMG said:
I guess my mentality bridges the gap. Understanding the automation (and using it correctly) is important a lot of the time. Busy airspace, 2 eyes looking outside is better than one. Bad weather, that’s just an obvious scenario. But I guess maybe it is unique to our shop, maybe not, but I’d say the amount of CA’s that have encouraged me to fully hand fly during a low tasking arrival/visual approach has been greater than 90%. Even F/Ds off (gasp) in some instances. Purpose being to give me a chance to get an actual feel for the airplane. I’ll say that definitely paid off when i flew a whole day of legs on an A/T inop jet. Never know when some malfunction is going to require a bit more feel for the airplane than you get in training/OE (though OE definitely started this trend). I can think of a recent trip where i hand flew a visual arrival into PSP, and that experience really showed me a particular example of what gear down, F5, and clean maneuver speed can do for you when ATC dumps you off high. Obviously not something one would do in instrument conditions, but it was cool to see her come down like the stories of 727s tell. I’m also very used to flying an airplane with no automation of any significance, so i realize this is my happy place. The real learning has been the automation, and i do equally feel that it requires a lot of skill to manage appropriately (especially in this jalopy). For all the hate, i really do like flying it, automated or otherwise.
Click to expand...

The Rhino has no automation of any significance?
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
The Rhino has no automation of any significance?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it is pretty hard to understand for folks coming from a civilian transport category background. It’s basically a big Cessna with a HUD, compared to airline planes. We have a barometric altitude hold function, you can couple to an enroute sequence of waypoints (to include RNAV post 2017), and we have autothrottles. We also have an attitude hold function which is similar in operation to 737 CWS (but all axis if commanded). No FD’s. We do have carrier based ILS guidance which looks identical to civilian land based ILS, and we have the automatic carrier landing system (ACLS) which you can fully couple to for an autoland at the ship, provided the ship’s gear and yours is working. I’ve never flown a coupled CVN approach, but i have used the guidance provided while hand flying. It’s just a different mentality of flying, probably for good reason.

We have a 249 count waypoint database, and have the ability (now) to load RNAV approaches to hand fly (to MDA). No LNAV or VNAV whatsoever. You just guess and do that pilot • if given a crossing restriction, an arc is flown like you would on a 6 pack plane with an HSI, and you will never hear a single one of us accept a STAR because we don’t have it, and it would take 20 mins to hand jam and we would never be speed or altitude protected.
 
///AMG said:
I guess my mentality bridges the gap. Understanding the automation (and using it correctly) is important a lot of the time. Busy airspace, 2 eyes looking outside is better than one. Bad weather, that’s just an obvious scenario. But I guess maybe it is unique to our shop, maybe not, but I’d say the amount of CA’s that have encouraged me to fully hand fly during a low tasking arrival/visual approach has been greater than 90%. Even F/Ds off (gasp) in some instances. Purpose being to give me a chance to get an actual feel for the airplane. I’ll say that definitely paid off when i flew a whole day of legs on an A/T inop jet. Never know when some malfunction is going to require a bit more feel for the airplane than you get in training/OE (though OE definitely started this trend). I can think of a recent trip where i hand flew a visual arrival into PSP, and that experience really showed me a particular example of what gear down, F5, and clean maneuver speed can do for you when ATC dumps you off high. Obviously not something one would do in instrument conditions, but it was cool to see her come down like the stories of 727s tell. I’m also very used to flying an airplane with no automation of any significance, so i realize this is my happy place. The real learning has been the automation, and i do equally feel that it requires a lot of skill to manage appropriately (especially in this jalopy). For all the hate, i really do like flying it, automated or otherwise.
Click to expand...
I do mine at Flaps 2…BWAHAHAHA
 
derg said:
While proficiency in low levels of automation is ultimate, if you're doing it for craps 'n grins, it's not a dual cross country.
Click to expand...

Well i think intentional “raw data” approaches/nav are sufficiently outside the realm of any useful “practice”. Nobody wins in that situation.
 
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