Oh Alaska(n)

Skåning said:
Position bid came out today, over a dozen downgrades (captain to FO) :confused:
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Unfortunately that’s going to continue in much larger numbers as the Airbus reduction bids continue through the year. I’d be very surprised if they follow through with an SFO base for the Boeing, if that turns out to be the case there will be many downgrades and the upgrade time will obviously go up significantly.
 
Skåning said:
Position bid came out today, over a dozen downgrades (captain to FO) :confused:
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Kingairer said:
How the heck is that possible in todays airline world??
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Reserve4Ever said:
Unfortunately that’s going to continue in much larger numbers as the Airbus reduction bids continue through the year. I’d be very surprised if they follow through with an SFO base for the Boeing, if that turns out to be the case there will be many downgrades and the upgrade time will obviously go up significantly.
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Wow. What fake news, or at least, misinformation.

Either people hate AS so much they just say stuff like this, or my personal theory, they don't understand how bids work at Alaska Airlines.


The above is not a fair writeup and gives the wrong impression to the crowd on JC.


So, allow me to explain so everyone can follow.

This Bid had Reductions:

-34 LAX Airbus Capt


This bid had Vacancies:
+34 Boeing LAX Capt
+ 4 Boeing ANC Capt
+ 6 Boeing PDX Capt
+ 10 Boeing SEA Capt


Do the math and you will see that this bid RESULTED in a NET +20 Captains. I state again, 20 pilots who are currently FOs will now be going through upgrade school and become CAs.



So why the so-called "dozen Captain downgrades?"

It's simple, it's because Alaska awards Vacancies FIRST and then processes reductions SECOND.


First step, they allow all those CA positions that are open to be bid by anybody. So anyone can bid those 34 Capt spots in LAX, 4 Capt spots in ANC, 6 Capt spots in PDX, and 10 Capt spots in LAX. Those are free-for-all.

After those are awarded, THEN they look at how many reductions they have to process. In an ideal world, all 34 Airbus Captains would have bid out of LAX onto something else. IF that happened, no reductions have to be processed. But not everyone in LAX Airbus bid out!

Of the 34 required reductions, only 18 captains bid out. Which means AFTER the vacancies are awarded, they now have to force out the bottom 16 Airbus LAX Captains. These bottom 16 LAX airbus Captains are now processed in inverse seniority from bottom to top, and they will then displace to wherever their seniority can hold. In this process, it CAN result in a FO who just got an upgrade award on paper, to subsequently lose that award now and show being FO again. Of the 16, 2 chose to be FOs but 14 chose to get CA if displaced out.


That is exactly what happened. These so called "dozen downgrades" were simply FOs who held a vacancy for a Captain spot but then lost it 10 seconds later as the reductions are processed.

It's just that in our system, you can see your initial vacancy award and then your reduction award. So some like to say this is a downgraded FO.


No offense, they weren't Captains. They were FOs who momentarily held a Capt slot and then subsequently couldn't hold it as displacements were processed on this same bid.


NO current Captain is getting downgraded unless they chose to. The bottom barrel plug Captain award at the company is a SEA Captain, and he is still junior to the most junior LAX Airbus Captain who got reduced. In other words, so as long as you are willing to change your base to hold a Capt spot, you're still a Captain.

After all, the bid did add 20 new Captains.


I hope that makes more sense. The distinction is important. I don't think it's fair to say that Alaska is just downgrading a dozen FOs. It's just that vacancies are done first, they held an initial Captain award, but lost it seconds later as the reductions are processed and the bottomo 16 LAX Airbus Captains are forced out. Since the system shows the initial vacancy award and then the subsequent displacement, people consider this as a "downgrade."


Bottom line, this bid created its goal: 20 FOs who are physically going to go from FO to CA via upgrade training in the Summer.
 
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Skåning said:
No, but a well known member here is. I feel the pain of the upgrade joy and then smacked with the realities of this lackluster operation.


Welcome to the twilight zone
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How did he get downgraded? The most junior CA plug is a SEA Captain, seniority #2380

The most junior LAX Airbus Capt forced out is seniority #2174... this individual could have held SEA Captain.
 
To add more color, because the next bid(s) are going to close out the San Fran Airbus base.


Lets assume it's done in one big bid. This is a hypothetical...............

Reductions:
-150 SFO Airbus Captains
-150 SFO Airbus FOs.


Vacancies:
+150 SFO Boeing Captains
+150 SFO Boeing FOs
+10 ANC CAs
+10 SEA CAs
+10 LAX CAs
+10 PDX CAs


In this scenario, when all the blood bath is done, there are still a net of +40 Captain spots.

But vacancies are awarded FIRST.


Lets make a hypothetical, would never happen, but lets say this did: NO San Fran Airbus captain bids out. That's fine, but now 150 CA spots in San Fran will go in seniority order and they would go waaaaaaaaay junior. ALL vacancies have to be awarded first. THEN they have to go back and process reductions. Since no SFO Airbus Capt bid out in this hypothetical situation, they now have to process 150 SFO Capt reductions, and they will go where their seniority can hold.

In that hypothetical example, you would see 150 FOs holding San Fran captain initially *momentarily* (probably even a 2021 hire) and then subsequently be reduced back to a FO position.

So if you want to say "oh this guy got downgraded!" I don't really buy it. It was a just a byproduct of the way the bids are done here. He was never Captain, was awarded a Captain slot ONLY because the reductions hadn't been processed, and once the reductions are processed, he clearly couldn't hold a Captain slot.

That's not a downgrade to me. That's just seniority working itself out in a reduction AND vacancy bid at Alaska Airlines.
 
That’s a lot of words to say that someone awarded captain during the last bid was downgraded to FO during this bid.

Like others have already mentioned it isn’t good for morale and even more FOs will leave. According to our union the rate is 4-5 a week and I don’t think they are exaggerating.


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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
To add more color, because the next bid(s) are going to close out the San Fran Airbus base.


Lets assume it's done in one big bid. This is a hypothetical...............

Reductions:
-150 SFO Airbus Captains
-150 SFO Airbus FOs.


Vacancies:
+150 SFO Boeing Captains
+150 SFO Boeing FOs
+10 ANC CAs
+10 SEA CAs
+10 LAX CAs
+10 PDX CAs


In this scenario, when all the blood bath is done, there are still a net of +40 Captain spots.

But vacancies are awarded FIRST.


Lets make a hypothetical, would never happen, but lets say this did: NO San Fran Airbus captain bids out. That's fine, but now 150 CA spots in San Fran will go in seniority order and they would go waaaaaaaaay junior. ALL vacancies have to be awarded first. THEN they have to go back and process reductions. Since no SFO Airbus Capt bid out in this hypothetical situation, they now have to process 150 SFO Capt reductions, and they will go where their seniority can hold.

In that hypothetical example, you would see 150 FOs holding San Fran captain initially *momentarily* (probably even a 2021 hire) and then subsequently be reduced back to a FO position.

So if you want to say "oh this guy got downgraded!" I don't really buy it. It was a just a byproduct of the way the bids are done here. He was never Captain, was awarded a Captain slot ONLY because the reductions hadn't been processed, and once the reductions are processed, he clearly couldn't hold a Captain slot.

That's not a downgrade to me. That's just seniority working itself out in a reduction AND vacancy bid at Alaska Airlines.
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I’m pretty sure there are pilots who were awarded captain on the 5-2022 bid who can no longer hold it after this bid, maybe I’m using the wrong terminology, but I’ll call that a downgrade. Are your trying to say that because their upgrade class was recently cancelled by the company and they haven’t actually upgraded, that they shouldn’t consider themselves downgraded? If so, I guess that’s your opinion. I’m sure you’d feel the same if you were in their shoes.
 
Besides downgrades, there were a lot of people pushed out of their base to keep their seat (displacements).

Here are the junior captains now (new hires are going to every base/fleet):

320 LAX: 9/2015

320 SFO: 1/2017

737 ANC: 10/2016

737 LAX: 9/2016

737 PDX: 6/2015

737 SEA: 10/2017
 
Skåning said:
Besides downgrades, there were a lot of people pushed out of their base to keep their seat (displacements).

Here are the junior captains now (new hires are going to every base/fleet):

320 LAX: 9/2015

320 SFO: 1/2017

737 ANC: 10/2016

737 LAX: 9/2016

737 PDX: 6/2015

737 SEA: 10/2017
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This is no big deal because Eskimo is a great airline for commuters lol


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Reserve4Ever said:
I’m pretty sure there are pilots who were awarded captain on the 5-2022 bid who can no longer hold it after this bid, maybe I’m using the wrong terminology, but I’ll call that a downgrade. Are your trying to say that because their upgrade class was recently cancelled by the company and they haven’t actually upgraded, that they shouldn’t consider themselves downgraded? If so, I guess that’s your opinion. I’m sure you’d feel the same if you were in their shoes.
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At least 7 in Seattle but that doesn’t stop CC from going on an unending tirade about how they aren’t really downgraded…


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BEEF SUPREME said:
At least 7 in Seattle but that doesn’t stop CC from going on an unending tirade about how they aren’t really downgraded…


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Maybe once they go through training twice in the next 6 months for upgrade and subsequent downgrade, it will count. /S

In all seriousness, I wonder if they’ll actually put those people in upgrade classes or just pay them the rate until 10/01. My class was canceled with no reschedule in sight.
 
ShortField said:
Maybe once they go through training twice in the next 6 months for upgrade and subsequent downgrade, it will count. /S

In all seriousness, I wonder if they’ll actually put those people in upgrade classes or just pay them the rate until 10/01. My class was canceled with no reschedule in sight.
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That’s got to be demoralizing for sure.


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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
That is exactly what happened. These so called "dozen downgrades" were simply FOs who held a vacancy for a Captain spot but then lost it 10 seconds later as the reductions are processed.

It's just that in our system, you can see your initial vacancy award and then your reduction award. So some like to say this is a downgraded FO.


No offense, they weren't Captains. They were FOs who momentarily held a Capt slot and then subsequently couldn't hold it as displacements were processed on this same bid.
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You said a lot of stuff here, but this is partially incorrect. The 8 pilots that got flushed out the bottom in SEA were awarded CA more than momentarily. In fact it’s been since October, and they will be paid as Captains as of tomorrow until the October effective date of the bid that awarded yesterday. If not for the backlog in training, they’d be on the line right now.
 
I will apologize, because I was only looking at this bid and had heard guys talking about how they got an upgrade on this bid but only to be it taken away in the reduction on this same bid, which they considered a downgrade. This is not a downgrade when it happens in the same bid when vacancies are processed first, and reductions are processed second.

But I see now, comparing the May bid to the Oct bid, there were a few people holding CAs in that bid that now subsequently aren't holding it in October. That is a legit downgrade. Even if they didn't start training, they still get paid CA effective tomorrow and then effective Oct 1 will be paid as FO. It seems like the junior CA plug went from a 11/2017 to a 10/2017 hire. Unfortunately going forward, you are going to see more of this. As long as there are Airbus reductions, it will change the most bottom barrel junior CA spot.

The October '21 and May '22 bids were pure additions only with vacancies and no reductions (very large, IIRC about 100+ CAs on each bid) so they created an artificially (historically) low upgrade time that went to end of 2017 hire. This bid had Airbus reductions, and the next two bids are going to close out SFO Airbus in its entirety, so the bottom barrel CA plug is going to change and probably get more senior. The only "fix" is to create way more vacancies than reductions.

Of course, that remains to be seen. I'll tell you right now they better the SFO Boeing base because IF they don't, you are going to see the biggest bidding bloodbath in Alaska's history. I remain cautiously optimistic they open the SFO Boeing base.
 
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