Not PIC. Not SIC. Is it anything??

juxtapilot said:
@MidlifeFlyer What about part 135 rest rules? It's been a few years since I was in 135 ops, but if I recall correctly, using 2 pilots increased the amount of duty time, or decreased the amount of rest.. In that case would logging SIC be reasonable?
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Your comment about the rest rules is a good one since there's little doubt that "other commercial flying" would include flying as a non-required SIC.

But unfortunately, operational rules are separate from the logging rules and you look at each one independent of the other.
 
Indecision said:
True. But I guess I'll look at those hours like money taken out for taxes...it was never truly "mine" to begin with! :(
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Yeah if it makes you feel better I'm way over 900hrs that isn't in my logbook...

Still did all the stuff I did when I was a legal SIC. But the time doesn't count.

For a while there was a time when I was told "you fly better than a2500hr pilot".

It is better than the guys who obviously cheated...
 
Our GOM, which is accepted by the FSDO, and required by 135.21, requires two pilots for every passenger carrying operation under IFR. Wouldn't this be a regulatory requirement for the SIC, and thus, loggable time, in a single pilot airplane?

"Each certificate holder, other than one who uses only one pilot in the certificate holder's operations, shall prepare and keep current a manual setting forth the certificate holder's procedures and policies acceptable to the Administrator. This manual must be used by the certificate holder's flight, ground, and maintenance personnel in conducting its operations."

I realize the GOM is accepted and not approved, but the reg says I must comply with what is in there.
 
mojo6911 said:
Our GOM, which is accepted by the FSDO, and required by 135.21, requires two pilots for every passenger carrying operation under IFR. Wouldn't this be a regulatory requirement for the SIC, and thus, loggable time, in a single pilot airplane?

"Each certificate holder, other than one who uses only one pilot in the certificate holder's operations, shall prepare and keep current a manual setting forth the certificate holder's procedures and policies acceptable to the Administrator. This manual must be used by the certificate holder's flight, ground, and maintenance personnel in conducting its operations."

I realize the GOM is accepted and not approved, but the reg says I must comply with what is in there.
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When I was 135 it all came down to the fact there was no FDR so the time couldn't be logged as SIC. That was at least in the King Air. We often had 2 pilots 135 I was a PIC and logged PIC when I signed for the aircraft. When I was SIC I was a sack of bricks. I don't remember the hang up about the Cj2. The thing is all of the rules combined do conflict with each other. I chose not to log the time so it wouldn't be a problem down the road. I have a type for the CE525 time and the training at FSI for the KA200.

Not that I would be interviewing at a major anytime soon but I'd like to think I wouldn't be disqualified for a logbook issue.

At the end of the day it really is up to the pilot. We have all heard stories about people logging time they didn't fly. The best story I've heard was a group of Belgian flight school students who would fly into a private field, play golf and chill by the pool with the engines idling and aircraft tied down. It worked great until an FAA inspector showed up at the same fly in golf resort.

An older fueler at a Bay Area airport told me he had all of his buddies fill his logbook with flights and signatures so he could get his 500 hours to be a bush pilot. Then again the guy was pumping gas so your milage may vary.
 
Indecision said:
True. But I guess I'll look at those hours like money taken out for taxes...it was never truly "mine" to begin with! :(
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Yeah if it makes you feel better I'm way over 900hrs that isn't in my logbook...

Still did all the stuff I did when I was a legal SIC. But the time doesn't count.

For a while there was a time when I was told "you fly better than a2500hr pilot".

It is better than the guys who obviously cheated...
 
mojo6911 said:
Our GOM, which is accepted by the FSDO, and required by 135.21, requires two pilots for every passenger carrying operation under IFR. Wouldn't this be a regulatory requirement for the SIC, and thus, loggable time, in a single pilot airplane?

"Each certificate holder, other than one who uses only one pilot in the certificate holder's operations, shall prepare and keep current a manual setting forth the certificate holder's procedures and policies acceptable to the Administrator. This manual must be used by the certificate holder's flight, ground, and maintenance personnel in conducting its operations."

I realize the GOM is accepted and not approved, but the reg says I must comply with what is in there.
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Yes, but the GOM ultimately sets out company rules, not FAA rules. Yes, as a pilot, you can be disciplined for not following it and, in the case of a regulatory violation, a violation of the GOM will be some prety good evidence that you know what you were supposed to do. But ultimately, the GOM doesn't have the same status as an OpSpec, which does become a part of the body of regulations governing the flight.

I don't recall the source, but I have heard there was some discussion going on to expand loggable SIC time to be a little more in tune with the safety realities of Part 135 and corporate flights.
 
mojo6911 said:
Our GOM, which is accepted by the FSDO, and required by 135.21, requires two pilots for every passenger carrying operation under IFR. Wouldn't this be a regulatory requirement for the SIC, and thus, loggable time, in a single pilot airplane?

"Each certificate holder, other than one who uses only one pilot in the certificate holder's operations, shall prepare and keep current a manual setting forth the certificate holder's procedures and policies acceptable to the Administrator. This manual must be used by the certificate holder's flight, ground, and maintenance personnel in conducting its operations."

I realize the GOM is accepted and not approved, but the reg says I must comply with what is in there.
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We have something like that for a single-pilot certified aircraft, but it is "FAA Approved."
 
Let me ask something on a similar note. While flying for a pipeline patrol company as an observer I was led to believe that logging SIC in a 182 was acceptable. I logged as total time as well but PIC only on the dh legs. Getting ready for an airline interview and getting worried about this 300 hours of SIC time that I am now realizing isnt really acceptable. So, how should i correct this in my log? 3500 total so plenty of hours for atp but i dont want the airlines to kick me out of interview after seeing this time in there.
 
FLYINGSAVAGE said:
Let me ask something on a similar note. While flying for a pipeline patrol company as an observer I was led to believe that logging SIC in a 182 was acceptable. I logged as total time as well but PIC only on the dh legs. Getting ready for an airline interview and getting worried about this 300 hours of SIC time that I am now realizing isnt really acceptable. So, how should i correct this in my log? 3500 total so plenty of hours for atp but i dont want the airlines to kick me out of interview after seeing this time in there.
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Ya that is not acceptable. The only way you could log SIC in a 182 is under 135 IFR without an autopilot.
 
Last I checked, you can't fly a kingair 350 single pilot.
Indecision said:
Hello All!

I apologize for a question regarding proper logging of time, as I honestly thought I was always doing it the "right way"? I did try to do a search of the forums for an answer to this particular question, but could not find a definitive answer. So, here goes...

A while ago I flew 135 for several years, primarily in KingAir 350's. All Pilots were required to have an ATP, were PIC/Single-Pilot typed, and recurrent check rides were conducted Single-Pilot. Although the company insurance required, and most often passenger's requested, there to be 2 pilots, the company's Op's Specs did not require an SIC. Nor did we conduct flights without an installed, working Auto-Pilot. So, I personally, never logged any time as "SIC" (even though the "Right-Seater" did the "work" of an SIC).

We had Dispatch Release's that defined the PIC for each leg (as well as SIC, even though an SIC was not legally required). I only logged PIC when it abided by FAR Part 1 criteria ("final authority...", "designated as PIC...", etc).

Now, here is where I believe I made a mistake in MY logging these years of flying. When I was listed on the Release as (FAR Part 1) PIC, I logged the time as PIC (whether I was the Pilot Flying, or Pilot Not Flying). I don't believe there's an issue there. However, when I was NOT listed as PIC, I didn't log anything as SIC, yet logged it as "Total Time" and "Multi- Engine" time.

As I'm working through the (rather confusing) flight time section of "AirlineApps", it obviously does not account for time that's not logged as PIC, or SIC. So, I guess I just wanted to confirm that the time I actually logged as mentioned above (not PIC, not SIC, but logged as "Total Time" and "Multi-Engine" time) should be removed from my Logbook in its entirety?

Thanks for taking the time to read, reply, and clarify!
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Back to stage 1, was an sic required? 135.4a? Last I checked a king air 350 is not a single pilot AC by 135 regs. Could be wrong, thought the -300 was the max. If you were required for 135, and insurance, your time would be SIC as rated as required.

If a king air 350 CAN and IS a single pilot AC, by 135 legs in your operation, you are hosed. It all comes down to the regs and what certification allows. Did your FAA ops specs allow single pilot operation of the BE-350?

If not, it's SIC, unless you were signing as PiC on each leg of the flight plan and acting as such. If single pilot was permitted by ops specs, and done as such without you listed as the PiC of record, you are again hosed.

If it required 2, you are #2, it's sic. Anything less is only pic if you were in fact listed...key point in 135, as the pic.

If your are logging sic, as required, you better show that you meet 135.4 requirements, especially b. That's the edit
 
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Indecision said:
AirlineApps doesn't really define SIC, (but has a few kind of odd PIC "parameters"). Yet, for their Flight Summary, PIC + SIC must equal what's in your logbook totals (which makes sense). In my case, roughly 900 hours was off, due to the time in question not being classified as PIC, nor SIC, yet was part of my "Total Time".

Even though I oftentimes acted as Pilot Flying during this time (where I was not listed as PIC) , as well as operated as a Company "SIC", it appears that this should removed from my logbook.
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I understand that the time might not be worthwhile to airline apps due to you not meeting the app requested criteria of "signing for final authority of aircraft", but I wouldn't just ditch the PIC where you were the sole manipulator of the controls for an aircraft you were appropriately rated to operate. I'd still log it and just not report it in flight times that don't apply.

It may be a moot point anyway since we mostly log time to meet particular prospective employers' requirements (i.e. only claiming time where signed as final authority), but sole manipulator time is PIC time, cut and dry.

Or am I misunderstanding something?
 
z987k said:
\Just like the 1900, which BTW is the heaviest single pilot aircraft.
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Oh, indeed?

1024px-Sukhoi_Su-27SKM_at_MAKS-2005_airshow.jpg
 
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