Not PIC. Not SIC. Is it anything??

I

Indecision

Well-Known Member
Hello All!

I apologize for a question regarding proper logging of time, as I honestly thought I was always doing it the "right way"? I did try to do a search of the forums for an answer to this particular question, but could not find a definitive answer. So, here goes...

A while ago I flew 135 for several years, primarily in KingAir 350's. All Pilots were required to have an ATP, were PIC/Single-Pilot typed, and recurrent check rides were conducted Single-Pilot. Although the company insurance required, and most often passenger's requested, there to be 2 pilots, the company's Op's Specs did not require an SIC. Nor did we conduct flights without an installed, working Auto-Pilot. So, I personally, never logged any time as "SIC" (even though the "Right-Seater" did the "work" of an SIC).

We had Dispatch Release's that defined the PIC for each leg (as well as SIC, even though an SIC was not legally required). I only logged PIC when it abided by FAR Part 1 criteria ("final authority...", "designated as PIC...", etc).

Now, here is where I believe I made a mistake in MY logging these years of flying. When I was listed on the Release as (FAR Part 1) PIC, I logged the time as PIC (whether I was the Pilot Flying, or Pilot Not Flying). I don't believe there's an issue there. However, when I was NOT listed as PIC, I didn't log anything as SIC, yet logged it as "Total Time" and "Multi- Engine" time.

As I'm working through the (rather confusing) flight time section of "AirlineApps", it obviously does not account for time that's not logged as PIC, or SIC. So, I guess I just wanted to confirm that the time I actually logged as mentioned above (not PIC, not SIC, but logged as "Total Time" and "Multi-Engine" time) should be removed from my Logbook in its entirety?

Thanks for taking the time to read, reply, and clarify!
 
What would look sketchy about it. I think it looks better that a bunch of total time that hasn't been labeled SIC or PIC. I think your much more likely to get asked about that then PIC time in a plane your are qualified in.
 
Goreman11 said:
What would look sketchy about it. I think it looks better that a bunch of total time that hasn't been labeled SIC or PIC. I think your much more likely to get asked about that then PIC time in a plane your are qualified in.
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It's going to look pretty funny if suddenly there's lines and corrections and he all of a sudden "corrects" his PIC time and it skyrockets over what was in there previously. Yeah your scenario would look sketchy too, that's why it's helpful to know what you can and can't log before the fact.
 
Indecision said:
Hello All!

I apologize for a question regarding proper logging of time, as I honestly thought I was always doing it the "right way"? I did try to do a search of the forums for an answer to this particular question, but could not find a definitive answer. So, here goes...

A while ago I flew 135 for several years, primarily in KingAir 350's. All Pilots were required to have an ATP, were PIC/Single-Pilot typed, and recurrent check rides were conducted Single-Pilot. Although the company insurance required, and most often passenger's requested, there to be 2 pilots, the company's Op's Specs did not require an SIC. Nor did we conduct flights without an installed, working Auto-Pilot. So, I personally, never logged any time as "SIC" (even though the "Right-Seater" did the "work" of an SIC).

We had Dispatch Release's that defined the PIC for each leg (as well as SIC, even though an SIC was not legally required). I only logged PIC when it abided by FAR Part 1 criteria ("final authority...", "designated as PIC...", etc).

Now, here is where I believe I made a mistake in MY logging these years of flying. When I was listed on the Release as (FAR Part 1) PIC, I logged the time as PIC (whether I was the Pilot Flying, or Pilot Not Flying). I don't believe there's an issue there. However, when I was NOT listed as PIC, I didn't log anything as SIC, yet logged it as "Total Time" and "Multi- Engine" time.

As I'm working through the (rather confusing) flight time section of "AirlineApps", it obviously does not account for time that's not logged as PIC, or SIC. So, I guess I just wanted to confirm that the time I actually logged as mentioned above (not PIC, not SIC, but logged as "Total Time" and "Multi-Engine" time) should be removed from my Logbook in its entirety?

Thanks for taking the time to read, reply, and clarify!
Click to expand...

If the autopilot was not operational were 2 pilots required?
 
Indecision said:
Now, here is where I believe I made a mistake in MY logging these years of flying. When I was listed on the Release as (FAR Part 1) PIC, I logged the time as PIC (whether I was the Pilot Flying, or Pilot Not Flying). I don't believe there's an issue there.
Click to expand...
Assuming we are talking about an FAA logging issue, there might be one. If you were Part 1 PIC and PNF, you were not entitled to log 61.51 PIC time. It's for the same reason you didn't log SIC - nothing regulatory required more than one pilot. 61.51(e)(iii) requires that a non-flying pilot be "act[ing] as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required." I think the only two non-flying situations in which a NFP may log PIC under the FAR are this one and a CFI providing instruction.

However, when I was NOT listed as PIC, I didn't log anything as SIC, yet logged it as "Total Time" and "Multi- Engine" time.

As I'm working through the (rather confusing) flight time section of "AirlineApps", it obviously does not account for time that's not logged as PIC, or SIC. So, I guess I just wanted to confirm that the time I actually logged as mentioned above (not PIC, not SIC, but logged as "Total Time" and "Multi-Engine" time) should be removed from my Logbook in its entirety?
Click to expand...
I think that was a good catch. If I recall correctly, there used to be some generic category of flight time that did not fit into 61.51 but I think it went away. The current FAR definition of "flight time" is pretty limited to receiving training or acting as required crew. 61.51 actually expands that a bit, but when it comes down to it, if you can't fit your flight time into one of the 61.51 boxes, you don't have any loggable flight time. No multi-time and no time to total.

Of course, your airline apps might well define the PIC and SIC they they are looking for differently than the FAA. How does the app define those times? Most I'be heard about define PIC as Part 1 PIC. But I haven't heard much about SIC definitions for apps and I can certainly see where an aviation employer would want to know about your crew experience whether or not it was FAA-"required."

"Fixing" it I'm not sure about. Crossing out a bunch of stuff makes sense if the way it is is inaccurate to avoid potential falsification issues but it can also bring unwanted attention in more ways than one. If your primary logging is FAA, there is never a problem since you can always create extra columns and even just extra totals for "airline time" without having regulatory logbook issues.

Not sure I helped much :(
 
JordanD said:
It's going to look pretty funny if suddenly there's lines and corrections and he all of a sudden "corrects" his PIC time and it skyrockets over what was in there previously. Yeah your scenario would look sketchy too, that's why it's helpful to know what you can and can't log before the fact.
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Fortunately, I had switched over to an electronic logbook by then, so it would just be a matter of deleting the time that I logged when I was not PIC.

I would certainly not be adding to my PIC time when it wasn't legit (By definition of Part 1). so, if anything, time will be subtracted (roughly 900 hours where I was not PIC, yet logged "Total Time" and "Multi Engine" time). Most I knew of there logged it all as PIC, but there's no way I would take the chance on that being questioned.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Assuming we are talking about an FAA logging issue, there might be one. If you were Part 1 PIC and PNF, you were not entitled to log 61.51 PIC time. It's for the same reason you didn't log SIC - nothing regulatory required more than one pilot. 61.51(e)(iii) requires that a non-flying pilot be "act[ing] as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required." I think the only two non-flying situations in which a NFP may log PIC under the FAR are this one and a CFI providing instruction.

I think that was a good catch. If I recall correctly, there used to be some generic category of flight time that did not fit into 61.51 but I think it went away. The current FAR definition of "flight time" is pretty limited to receiving training or acting as required crew. 61.51 actually expands that a bit, but when it comes down to it, if you can't fit your flight time into one of the 61.51 boxes, you don't have any loggable flight time. No multi-time and no time to total.

Of course, your airline apps might well define the PIC and SIC they they are looking for differently than the FAA. How does the app define those times? Most I'be heard about define PIC as Part 1 PIC. But I haven't heard much about SIC definitions for apps and I can certainly see where an aviation employer would want to know about your crew experience whether or not it was FAA-"required."

"Fixing" it I'm not sure about. Crossing out a bunch of stuff makes sense if the way it is is inaccurate to avoid potential falsification issues but it can also bring unwanted attention in more ways than one. If your primary logging is FAA, there is never a problem since you can always create extra columns and even just extra totals for "airline time" without having regulatory logbook issues.

Not sure I helped much :(
Click to expand...

AirlineApps doesn't really define SIC, (but has a few kind of odd PIC "parameters"). Yet, for their Flight Summary, PIC + SIC must equal what's in your logbook totals (which makes sense). In my case, roughly 900 hours was off, due to the time in question not being classified as PIC, nor SIC, yet was part of my "Total Time".

Even though I oftentimes acted as Pilot Flying during this time (where I was not listed as PIC) , as well as operated as a Company "SIC", it appears that this should removed from my logbook.
 
I didn't log this kind of time. Lots of right seat in a Cj2. Later I was told by a CP that I should have logged the time. Oh well.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
If they were 135 passenger IFR flights, yes. 135.101.
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That's what I'm thinking, in which case all the time is legal whether or not the autopilot is installed and operational.

@Indecision I think you have an opsec that permits your company to use an autopilot if you (an SIC) are not on board. The right seat SIC time is legal, even though it's a single pilot aircraft.
 
Indecision said:
AirlineApps doesn't really define SIC, (but has a few kind of odd PIC "parameters"). Yet, for their Flight Summary, PIC + SIC must equal what's in your logbook totals (which makes sense). In my case, roughly 900 hours was off, due to the time in question not being classified as PIC, nor SIC, yet was part of my "Total Time".

Even though I oftentimes acted as Pilot Flying during this time (where I was not listed as PIC) , as well as operated as a Company "SIC", it appears that this should removed from my logbook.
Click to expand...

Also I had a similar situation, I ended up logging SIC if I didn't sign for the aircraft, even though I was PF. Seems more honest that way.
 
juxtapilot said:
That's what I'm thinking, in which case all the time is legal whether or not the autopilot is installed and operational.

@Indecision I think you have an opsec that permits your company to use an autopilot if you (an SIC) are not on board. The right seat SIC time is legal, even though it's a single pilot aircraft.
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It's not that simple. If the autopilot is used, the SIC is not required and may not log the time as SIC. The operator can make an election before the flight to use an SIC instead of the autopilot but, even then, if it is used in flight, no SIC time.

It's weird and there were conflicting FAA opinions but that seems to have settled down with the 2009 Nichols Interpretation.
 
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