Not PIC. Not SIC. Is it anything??

Honestly, I am sure many here will say otherwise, who cares. If you want to go to the airlines (regional to start) I can guarantee they won't question one minute of that time. All they care about is seeing a magical 1500 number written in a column somewhere in the book so they can put another body in the right seat.
 
Indecision said:
AirlineApps doesn't really define SIC, (but has a few kind of odd PIC "parameters"). Yet, for their Flight Summary, PIC + SIC must equal what's in your logbook totals (which makes sense). In my case, roughly 900 hours was off, due to the time in question not being classified as PIC, nor SIC, yet was part of my "Total Time".

Even though I oftentimes acted as Pilot Flying during this time (where I was not listed as PIC) , as well as operated as a Company "SIC", it appears that this should removed from my logbook.
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Sounds that way - if the app is not defining a type of flight time, the default is going to be the FAA's definition.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
If they were 135 passenger IFR flights, yes. 135.101.
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All of the flights in question were indeed dispatched as 135 IFR pax flights, and I don't recall a flight whereby the A/P was MEL'd/INOP. So, with the A/P being operational, looks like this time can't be classified as "SIC" (with no Op's Spec requiring an SIC with an operative A/P) nor really as ANY loggable time?
 
B200 Hawk said:
Honestly, I am sure many here will say otherwise, who cares. If you want to go to the airlines (regional to start) I can guarantee they won't question one minute of that time. All they care about is seeing a magical 1500 number written in a column somewhere in the book so they can put another body in the right seat.
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Yeah, at my regional interview (11+ years ago) I was never asked for my logbooks, nor for any job since then. I just don't want to have that "career job" interview, and have any logbook explaining or justification to do.

I guess I never thought just including this as "Total Time" and "Multi Engine" time was incorrect (although I can see why now, especially when one has to think about every hour of their times as legally PIC or SIC...nothing "in between")
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Sounds that way - if the app is not defining a type of flight time, the default is going to be the FAA's definition.
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AirlineApps is a bit confusing. For example, you can't include "Dual" time separate from "PIC" time. So, if you have 800 hours "PIC" and 200 hours "Dual" (say, in a C172) then your AirlineApp would have to read 600 hours PIC and 200 hours Dual (to combine for the 800 hours PIC). It's odd, but their system will automatically include Dual as PIC :eek2:
 
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MidlifeFlyer said:
Assuming we are talking about an FAA logging issue, there might be one. If you were Part 1 PIC and PNF, you were not entitled to log 61.51 PIC time. It's for the same reason you didn't log SIC - nothing regulatory required more than one pilot. 61.51(e)(iii) requires that a non-flying pilot be "act[ing] as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required." I think the only two non-flying situations in which a NFP may log PIC under the FAR are this one and a CFI providing instruction.


I think that was a good catch. If I recall correctly, there used to be some generic category of flight time that did not fit into 61.51 but I think it went away. The current FAR definition of "flight time" is pretty limited to receiving training or acting as required crew. 61.51 actually expands that a bit, but when it comes down to it, if you can't fit your flight time into one of the 61.51 boxes, you don't have any loggable flight time. No multi-time and no time to total.

Of course, your airline apps might well define the PIC and SIC they they are looking for differently than the FAA. How does the app define those times? Most I'be heard about define PIC as Part 1 PIC. But I haven't heard much about SIC definitions for apps and I can certainly see where an aviation employer would want to know about your crew experience whether or not it was FAA-"required."

"Fixing" it I'm not sure about. Crossing out a bunch of stuff makes sense if the way it is is inaccurate to avoid potential falsification issues but it can also bring unwanted attention in more ways than one. If your primary logging is FAA, there is never a problem since you can always create extra columns and even just extra totals for "airline time" without having regulatory logbook issues.

Not sure I helped much :(
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Just for clarification, a 135 PIC (final authority, butt is on the line, etc.) who happens to be PNF for a leg is not allowed to log that time?

The PF for that leg is either another 135 PIC (not designated as PIC for that flight) or a trained/checked SIC. The company has the a/p ILO SIC opsec (A015) issued and it's certified single pilot.

FWIW, when I'm designated SIC, I track the time for my personal records (for night landings), but that time doesn't go in the logbook.
 
The Nichols letter is why I don't log any SIC time in my logbook.

On our company forms, we still have to show it, though, and it counts towards our flight time limits. I view that as more a more conservative approach because it is limiting (as opposed to saying I flew 0.0 because I was SIC).
 
Indecision said:
All of the flights in question were indeed dispatched as 135 IFR pax flights, and I don't recall a flight whereby the A/P was MEL'd/INOP. So, with the A/P being operational, looks like this time can't be classified as "SIC" (with no Op's Spec requiring an SIC with an operative A/P) nor really as ANY loggable time?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, @MidlifeFlyer , but isn't the test in this case (as stupid as it is) whether the autopilot was actually in use (Whether the certificate holder 'opted to use' the autopilot in lieu of the SIC) as per the Nichols LOI, and not whether it was 'operational'?

Or am I misreading?

-Fox
 
Indecision said:
Hello All!

I apologize for a question regarding proper logging of time, as I honestly thought I was always doing it the "right way"? I did try to do a search of the forums for an answer to this particular question, but could not find a definitive answer. So, here goes...

A while ago I flew 135 for several years, primarily in KingAir 350's. All Pilots were required to have an ATP, were PIC/Single-Pilot typed, and recurrent check rides were conducted Single-Pilot. Although the company insurance required, and most often passenger's requested, there to be 2 pilots, the company's Op's Specs did not require an SIC. Nor did we conduct flights without an installed, working Auto-Pilot. So, I personally, never logged any time as "SIC" (even though the "Right-Seater" did the "work" of an SIC).

We had Dispatch Release's that defined the PIC for each leg (as well as SIC, even though an SIC was not legally required). I only logged PIC when it abided by FAR Part 1 criteria ("final authority...", "designated as PIC...", etc).

Now, here is where I believe I made a mistake in MY logging these years of flying. When I was listed on the Release as (FAR Part 1) PIC, I logged the time as PIC (whether I was the Pilot Flying, or Pilot Not Flying). I don't believe there's an issue there. However, when I was NOT listed as PIC, I didn't log anything as SIC, yet logged it as "Total Time" and "Multi- Engine" time.

As I'm working through the (rather confusing) flight time section of "AirlineApps", it obviously does not account for time that's not logged as PIC, or SIC. So, I guess I just wanted to confirm that the time I actually logged as mentioned above (not PIC, not SIC, but logged as "Total Time" and "Multi-Engine" time) should be removed from my Logbook in its entirety?

Thanks for taking the time to read, reply, and clarify!
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Since you are asking about AirlineApps, the answer here is, it doesn't count as anything. Do you have an electronic logbook? If not, I would recommend getting one and relogging your flight time to include only your PIC (not including sole manipulator of the controls on an instruction flight... that is considered dual), SIC, and Dual. Any reputable company will be MORE restrictive than the FAA when counting your times and they are going to look through your log books with a fine tooth comb to make sure everything is kosher.

I know it seems like a ton of work, but I have been there. I've spent countless hours making sure my logbooks were in top shape for my interviews. If you get the job you want it will all be worth it, but it would really suck to get an interview and then not get a job over something silly like logbooks.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
It's not that simple. If the autopilot is used, the SIC is not required and may not log the time as SIC. The operator can make an election before the flight to use an SIC instead of the autopilot but, even then, if it is used in flight, no SIC time.

It's weird and there were conflicting FAA opinions but that seems to have settled down with the 2009 Nichols Interpretation.
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Wow I hadn't seen that one. How asinine is that? So Mr. Chase, when a crew elects to not use the perfectly operational autopilot and crashes killing everyone, what say you then?

I have to do some more digging, but I don't think this can possibly be correct.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
It's not that simple. If the autopilot is used, the SIC is not required and may not log the time as SIC. The operator can make an election before the flight to use an SIC instead of the autopilot but, even then, if it is used in flight, no SIC time.

It's weird and there were conflicting FAA opinions but that seems to have settled down with the 2009 Nichols Interpretation.
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Oh... I didn't see your post here. Derp.

Derp, derp.

Should have read more before replying.

-Fox
 
You then present a variation on the Part 91 operation scenario by stating that you have removed one ofthe items required by the KOEL so that an SIC would be required for the operation. You state that the only way "to have the safety benefit of two pilots" is to "remove safety-enhancing equipment."

The FAA does not recommend the removal of equipment listed on the KOEL to require a two-pilot operation under the type certification. However, if this equipment is removed in an approved manner as stated on the type certification data sheet, a two-pilot operation in this aircraft is a safe operation because it would have been a safe operation under the type certification even ifthat removed equipment had never been installed.
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So, we're going to remove an SIC because there is an autopilot? We can't have 3 layers of safety? WTF are they smoking in Oklahoma City?

@MidlifeFlyer What about part 135 rest rules? It's been a few years since I was in 135 ops, but if I recall correctly, using 2 pilots increased the amount of duty time, or decreased the amount of rest.. In that case would logging SIC be reasonable?
 
juxtapilot said:
Wow I hadn't seen that one. How asinine is that? So Mr. Chase, when a crew elects to not use the perfectly operational autopilot and crashes killing everyone, what say you then?

I have to do some more digging, but I don't think this can possibly be correct.
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Keep in mind the only purpose behind FAA logging is to show qualification and currency. Responsibility is a completely separate issue.
 
mojo6911 said:
If it's 135 passenger carrying operations and you were listed on the paperwork, I would log it as SIC.
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Do NOT do this!

You've already said you were not required as an SIC and did not log the time as SIC... so why would you log the time as SIC on your application?? Honestly, you should not have been logging the time as Total Time. If it's already in your logbooks, then I would recommend you get it out of there.

I assume you want to work for a reputable airline at some point. They make it very clear what they are looking for in the flight time columns... either you signed for the aircraft, were giving instruction in the aircraft, were SIC in the aircraft (by definition of SIC), or were receiving instruction in the aircraft. That's it. If it doesn't fall into one of those categories, it didn't happen as far as your total time on your application goes. I've got right seat time in a King Air where the owners requested I fly with the PIC. It was a blast, wonderful experience and that's it. It's not in my logbook and it certainly wasn't on any applications.

Take the time to get it sorted out now or it will be a massive headache down the road!
 
mastermags said:
Do NOT do this!

You've already said you were not required as an SIC and did not log the time as SIC... so why would you log the time as SIC on your application?? Honestly, you should not have been logging the time as Total Time. If it's already in your logbooks, then I would recommend you get it out of there.

I assume you want to work for a reputable airline at some point. They make it very clear what they are looking for in the flight time columns... either you signed for the aircraft, were giving instruction in the aircraft, were SIC in the aircraft (by definition of SIC), or were receiving instruction in the aircraft. That's it. If it doesn't fall into one of those categories, it didn't happen as far as your total time on your application goes. I've got right seat time in a King Air where the owners requested I fly with the PIC. It was a blast, wonderful experience and that's it. It's not in my logbook and it certainly wasn't on any applications.

Take the time to get it sorted out now or it will be a massive headache down the road!
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I agree. Fortunately, I've got LogbookPro, so it's just a matter of deleting the "Total Time" and "Multi-Engine" time for all flights where I wasn't the assigned PIC.

Unfortunately, the way the Dispatchers released a trip with the two PIC's, one PIC would be assigned a leg or two on a trip, and the other PIC a leg or two as well (splitting PIC shifts for the entire trip). Since I can't recall which parts of the trip I was PIC, I'll just have to leave the airport pairings as is. That, I feel, could be a easily explained.

Thanks for everyone's inputs! Funny, because practically every Pilot I worked with there was either logging everything as PIC (whether they were assigned as PIC, or not assigned but were PF), or would log SIC when they weren't PIC.
 
Can't he log PIC for the flights he was PF Sole manipulator, or does it being 135 ops supersede this?
 
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