No Clearance Required to Cross a Closed Runway

adk

Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
Had a controller get annoyed with me because I asked for a clearance to cross a closed runway. He told me no clearance is required to cross a closed runway. Makes perfect sense to me, but I can't find that little tidbit written down anywhere. Any help?
 
Let them get annoyed, if in doubt ask. I'd rather piss a controller off than get a certified letter from a Washington DC mailing address.

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I had a controller specifically clear me to cross a closed runway as part of the taxi clearance the other day.
 
Had a controller get annoyed with me because I asked for a clearance to cross a closed runway. He told me no clearance is required to cross a closed runway. Makes perfect sense to me, but I can't find that little tidbit written down anywhere. Any help?

Any controller who gets annoyed by a pilot asking for clarification about a clearance needs to consider asking for a break immediately.
 
Any controller who gets annoyed by a pilot asking for clarification about a clearance needs to consider asking for a break immediately.

Apparently the ATIS specifically said no clearance required, but it was my leg to fly so I never heard it.
 
Apparently the ATIS specifically said no clearance required, but it was my leg to fly so I never heard it.

XNA was like that (it may still be for all I know) for months. The ATIS specified that no clearance was needed to cross the inboard closed runway. I still made sure we got one every time. The controller normally would ask if we'd listened to the ATIS and then I'd ask him to cite the FAR, AIM or 7110 section that says a closed runway doesn't require a clearance to cross it.
 
The ATIS doesn't supersede a regulation.

Exactly which regulation is being superseded?

adk said:
Apparently the ATIS specifically said no clearance required, but it was my leg to fly so I never heard it.
So we don't know what the ATIS actually said.

91.129(i) simply tells us:
==============================
No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC.
==============================

Now, the reg used to talk about "taxi to" and crossing intermediate runways in the next two sentences. But the 2012 change simply deleted that language. It didn't replace it with a ban.

Why wouldn't a statement on the ATIS that a certain runway is not in use and may be crossed, not be an "appropriate clearance to cross that runway?

But, that said, there is no reason for ATC to get upset if a pilot feels it better to ask for confirmation.
 
I recall a notice to controllers requiring clearance for active, inactive, and closed runways.

Can an ATIS provide any other type of clearance? I just don't feel ATIS should be in the clearance business.

My only real concern would be a clearance issued for another aircraft to take-off or land on a closed runway, which is not unheard of. There is also the chance that a mistake is made recalling the ATIS info.

I'll just play it safe.
 
I recall a notice to controllers requiring clearance for active, inactive, and closed runways.

Can an ATIS provide any other type of clearance?
Not sure but I seem to recall a late night ATIS (not very busy) that instructed to taxi to the ramp after landing without contacting anyone.

But I can't argue against playing it safe. I'd probably do that also.
 
Yup, XNA I remember when I flew in there back in May. I made sure not to say a word about it, they probably got tired of people asking, so they stuck that in the ATIS. That runway must have been closed quite a while ago. My buddy I was flying with, asked me if we were cleared to cross, I told him the ATIS said we didn't need a clearance to cross that runway. It does feel against your natural habits to cross a hold short line from the solid side with no clearance.

Considering how tore up the entire length of the runway is they should just remove those hold short lines for now... It looks more like a construction equipment exhibit than a runway. At least while I was there.
 
While it is true in the US like Canada you now need a positive clearance to cross all runways including those closed, XNA is a bit of a different situation. While it does say (sometimes) you don't need clearance in the ATIS, the "runway" as charted is currently not "marked" as a runway anymore. It currently has edge markings as a taxiway (spelling?) and "sometimes" the ATIS specifies that it is marked as a taxiway and clearance is not required.....even though it is "charted" as a runway. Obviously confusing.....and you could never be faulted for asking for clarification. Remember, the controller who might get annoyed with you experiences 1 airport, EVERY day, all year long. I go to about 150+ different airports every year. I can't possibly be expected to know every local rule, regulation, procedure, etc....If they get annoyed , well "F'em.....". Not my problem.
 
This is my impression based off of empirical evidence, and not necessarily the FARs. Ground controllers can issue clearance to cross inactive and/or closed runways, and tower holds the hammer for active runways. I will always, absolutely, read back the clearance to cross to any such controller, but I have never had a ground controller clear me to cross an active runway.
 
This is my impression based off of empirical evidence, and not necessarily the FARs. Ground controllers can issue clearance to cross inactive and/or closed runways, and tower holds the hammer for active runways. I will always, absolutely, read back the clearance to cross to any such controller, but I have never had a ground controller clear me to cross an active runway.
Ultimately, "Tower" and "Ground" are just divisions of duties in a control tower for convenience. When it's not very busy, say at night at a 24/7 tower, it's often all on one frequency (even was night at KCOS when CD, Ground, Tower, and Approcah/Departure were one guy (his mistake was not announcing "all services are on..." Made for some pretty funny communciations juggling when a meeting broke up ).

Generally, though, I've found the same division of responsibility as you., with Tower being in the best position to control active runway access.
 
Not sure but I seem to recall a late night ATIS (not very busy) that instructed to taxi to the ramp after landing without contacting anyone..

I fly nights and get that where Im at all the time. Clearance of "Cleared to land taxiway Charlie 2 (or runway XX), and to your ramp this freq, goodnight." And thats the last I hear from the local controller.
 
I fly nights and get that where Im at all the time. Clearance of "Cleared to land taxiway Charlie 2 (or runway XX), and to your ramp this freq, goodnight." And thats the last I hear from the local controller.
In your case, you're talking to a controller. What are your thoughts on ATIS clearing you to cross a closed runway without clearance? I think its a bad idea for ATIS to get in the clearance business. Closed or open, I'm going to ask for clearance. I'm looking at the markings and I don't have to correctly recall the ATIS instruction to prevent a possible incursion.

Also, as you are aware, you can be cleared to use a "closed runway", so that introduces a possible conflict. There isn't a FAR that prohibits taking off or landing on a closed runway.
 
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In your case, you're talking to a controller. What are your thoughts on ATIS clearing you to cross a closed runway without clearance? I think its a bad idea for ATIS to get in the clearance business. Closed or open, I'm going to ask for clearance. I'm looking at the markings and I don't have to correctly recall the ATIS instruction to prevent a possible incursion.

Also, as you are aware, you can be cleared to use a "closed runway", so that introduces a possible conflict. There isn't a FAR that prohibits taking off or landing on a closed runway.

Depends if we're talking an inactive runway, or an actual closed runway.

I believe ATIS should be advisory in nature vs giving any clearances. Advising you that Runway XX is closed in the ATIS remarks is sufficient. To me, it doesn't take much for a ground controller to say "Citation XX, taxi to Runway 25 via Bravo, cross Runway 16/34 [which may be closed]." Or something that that effect.

The only time I could see ATIS giving an instruction to cross is for a "hard" runway closure, not just an "inactive" runway. So say Runway 16/34 is not simply the inactive runway, but is getting work done on it with obvious men/equipment on it, the lighted "X" and the lighted curbing that has it closed from use as a runway, but may allow taxiway intersections to cross it; then I could see it being said in ATIS that no runway crossing clearance is needed.
 
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