Near Midair in NY Bravo

Asta

New Member
Last night with a student on a night cross we were cleared direct ISP to western NJ, which took us through the Bravo and over JFK. As we neared JFK at 6500 we were given a traffic advisory for a bizjet at our eleven o'clock. We had him already, and it was a classic example of two aircraft on a collision course: no relative movement and the target only got bigger. After what seemed a long time the bizjet finally called a tally on us, but by then they were about a mile. I told the controller I had to climb and did. The jet passed right beneath us, maybe 500 feet. If I had not climbed it would have been less. The bizjet told the controller that if he hadn't had a visual on us it would have been a "TA" (I think he said TA, but I can't remember as I am unfamiliar with the abbreviation.) The bizjet driver was obviously pissed.

Don't get me wrong, I think NY controllers are the best in the country, but that's was as close as I've ever come to a midair. I'm just trying to deconstruct this and what else I could have done. The whole thing took 20-30 seconds. We were the to right of the bizjet. Thoughts?
 

mikecweb

Well-Known Member
Last night with a student on a night cross we were cleared direct ISP to western NJ, which took us through the Bravo and over JFK. As we neared JFK at 6500 we were given a traffic advisory for a bizjet at our eleven o'clock. We had him already, and it was a classic example of two aircraft on a collision course: no relative movement and the target only got bigger. After what seemed a long time the bizjet finally called a tally on us, but by then they were about a mile. I told the controller I had to climb and did. The jet passed right beneath us, maybe 500 feet. If I had not climbed it would have been less. The bizjet told the controller that if he hadn't had a visual on us it would have been a "TA" (I think he said TA, but I can't remember as I am unfamiliar with the abbreviation.) The bizjet driver was obviously pissed.

Don't get me wrong, I think NY controllers are the best in the country, but that's was as close as I've ever come to a midair. I'm just trying to deconstruct this and what else I could have done. The whole thing took 20-30 seconds. We were the to right of the bizjet. Thoughts?
Were you in a VFR flyway?
 

Joe28

New Member
The bizjet told the controller that if he hadn't had a visual on us it would have been a "TA" (I think he said TA, but I can't remember as I am unfamiliar with the abbreviation.)
TCAS alert :)
 

nathanw

New Member
TCAS alert :)
Actually, TA means "Traffic Advisory" Means there's an aircraft in the area that could pose a problem. The next step is an RA or "Resolution Advisory". That is the action message, such as climb or descent. But yeah, they're both TCAS alerts.
 

pm577

New Member
I only have a private pilot with 70 hours, but I was flying VFR while maneuvering in slow flight, at around 3,500 MSL (3200 AGL)... and out of the blue comes another Cessna, so close I can read the tail number!
"hey that's N^^^89!!??" (guess what? it's another aircraft from the same flight school)
I made a moderate/easy bank to the right and avoided this plane (considering I was flying at minimum controllable airspeed)

Oh and I had a CFI onboard, so somehow we both failed to see this earlier
 

NJA_Capt

Well-Known Member
Last night with a student on a night cross ...through the Bravo and over JFK. As we neared JFK at 6500 we were given a traffic advisory for a bizjet at our eleven o'clock....After what seemed a long time the bizjet finally called a tally on us, but by then they were about a mile. I told the controller I had to climb and did.


The jet passed right beneath us, maybe 500 feet. If I had not climbed it would have been less. The bizjet told the controller that if he hadn't had a visual on us it would have been a "TA" (I think he said TA, but I can't remember as I am unfamiliar with the abbreviation.) The bizjet driver was obviously pissed.
3 big omissions are needed:
Did you have your landing lights on to help him(everyone) spot you sooner?
What altitude did ATC tell you the jet was at?
Was your altimeter set to the JFK setting?

If you were at a VFR altitude and he at an IFR altitude there should not have been an issue. I'm sure it would have looked close, especially at night.
 

Prino

Well-Known Member
I only have a private pilot with 70 hours, but I was flying VFR while maneuvering in slow flight, at around 3,500 MSL (3200 AGL)... and out of the blue comes another Cessna, so close I can read the tail number!
"hey that's N^^^89!!??" (guess what? it's another aircraft from the same flight school)
I made a moderate/easy bank to the right and avoided this plane (considering I was flying at minimum controllable airspeed)

Oh and I had a CFI onboard, so somehow we both failed to see this earlier
had a similar thing happen to me but i was on my first solo in the practice area that our flight school uses. decided to practice slow flight. so there i was tooling along at 55 kias, looking for traffic. the gps was indicating somebody under me, climbing and was less than a mile....so i was especially looking for them...next thing i knew the gps was saying "traffic" (this meant he was AT my altitude and less than a mile). add full power, climb and as i gain airspeed so i can turn i see this ####### about 300 feet below me, and sure enough...another aircraft from the flight school.
 

upstateNY

New Member
3 big omissions are needed:
Did you have your landing lights on to help him(everyone) spot you sooner?
What altitude did ATC tell you the jet was at?
Was your altimeter set to the JFK setting?

If you were at a VFR altitude and he at an IFR altitude there should not have been an issue. I'm sure it would have looked close, especially at night.
I agree, if the IFR airplane was at an IFR altitude for direction of flight (even or odd thousands of feet) and you were at VFR altitudes plus 500...6500 feet then according to paragraph 7-9-4 of the 7110.65 you were separated by the required 500 feet or target resolution depending on the size of the business jet
 

mikecweb

Well-Known Member
I agree, if the IFR airplane was at an IFR altitude for direction of flight (even or odd thousands of feet) and you were at VFR altitudes plus 500...6500 feet then according to paragraph 7-9-4 of the 7110.65 you were separated by the required 500 feet or target resolution depending on the size of the business jet
Unless of course they were climbing or descending.
 

Asta

New Member
Yes, we were all lit up. So was he. Seeing one another wasn't the problem. We saw him first, then he called the tally.

We were on Kennedy's altimeter setting.

I can't recall what the advisory stated for his altitude. He did not seem to be climbing or descending. As I say, there was no relative movement between us from the moment I saw him.

We were at 6500 and flying VFR. We were under control from wheels up. (ISP is class C and tower hands you off to NY departure immediately.) We were cleared direct westbound a few minutes off of ISP and our course took us directly over JFK.

I'm not going to burn my once-a-year NASA filing, since as far as I can tell I didn't do anything wrong: We were both under control, presumably both on assigned headings, and yet we were steered within a few hundred feet of one another. I wasn't comfortable with it, and neither was the jet driver apparently.

NathanW, I think the controller did say RA, now that you mention that.
 

mikecweb

Well-Known Member
You know there is another part to the NASA forms then just a "get out of jail free" deal. It helps research problems such as the one you described. Spelling it out on JC doesn't fix the problem.
 

FutureATCer

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to burn my once-a-year NASA filing, since as far as I can tell I didn't do anything wrong: We were both under control, presumably both on assigned headings, and yet we were steered within a few hundred feet of one another. I wasn't comfortable with it, and neither was the jet driver apparently.
You can file a NASA form every time you take a flight. I think the restriction lies with using the "get out of jail free" part. But if you file the form and nothing happens where you will need to use it, then you can file a form the next day (if another incident happens) and use it to get out of trouble.
 
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