National Seniority List

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Lead Sled

Lead Sled

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I’ve been looking for some threads about this topic and just decided to start one. My father flew for Eastern up to ’89 or so until Frank Lorenzo got the best of him and all of his friends. Walked the picket lines myself at DCA when I was just a kid. The worst rehire case I heard of was a 727 captain with 21 years. He decided to stick with the airlines and was hired at another to sit in front of the panel. The two pilots on his first flight were his junior in age by about 20 years (not to mention experience flying a 727). The stories of going right back to the bottom after years and years of loyal service are many. And as someone who is only trying to break into the scene with very little knowledge and experience of the aviation world I have to ask the question that scares me the most about attempting to join your ranks (which I do hope to do one day)…….why in the world can’t a national seniority list be worked out?
 
An NSL will never happen as long as ALPA continues to function as an Association of individual pilot MECs and refuses to act like a UNION.

Why? Everyone wants to protect their "career expectations."

If you need a detailed explanation, search and read the "Continental + Delta" thread.
 
Velo, I've gotta disagree with your explanation. The problem isn't ALPA as an organization, the problem is the members of ALPA. Duane Woerth was actually a big supporter of an NSL, but whenever he brought it up, people would start screaming at him. The problem is always that the pilots of the carriers that aren't doing so well want an NSL, but the pilots of the healthy and growing carriers view it as an abrogation of their seniority rights. It's simply too late to make this a reality. This was something that would have had to be done at the very beginning of the Association. There are too many conflicting interests at this point.
 
PCL,

Of course you're right. The problem with ALPA is the fact that its a "little d" democratic organization. As a result, all the factors you point out come into play.

Pilots are an incredible group of "I've got mine" type thinkers.

And that's why DoH got removed and "career expectations" got inserted in the merger/frag policy.
 
I think it's the nature of professional aviation.

Rewind the clock back to 2001. Half of us breathed a sigh of relief when UAL declared BK because we thought "Hmm, if they take the dirt nap, the rest of us will prosper" and the other half thought, "If they languish in BK, management's going to look at the ease of which they're able to bone their employees and profiteer from the courts"

I'd personally like to see absolutely all of the carriers, not necessarily under the same 'brand' of union, but certainly under a single umbrella, with a National Seniority List.

It might be great to remember Franklin's phrase that "We must hang together, gentleman, else we shall most assuredly hang separately".

We've been hanging separately and my wallet certainly hurts.
 
It's always been interesting to me that in other professions you can climb the rungs of a "career ladder" (moving up in pay and status) by moving between companies, but as a pilot moving between companies means a loss of pay and status, so to speak. Not a complant, just a thought.
 
mxflyer said:
It's always been interesting to me that in other professions you can climb the rungs of a "career ladder" (moving up in pay and status) by moving between companies, but as a pilot moving between companies means a loss of pay and status, so to speak. Not a complant, just a thought.
Click to expand...

In different "occupations" your abilities can be measured or quantified. The only real true measure of a pilot is safety, how is that measured, and more importantly measured fairly? The simple way to avoid this conundrum is to make everything based on longevity. It isn't perfect, but I can't really think of any other way to do things.
 
What do you guys suggest be the "price of admission" to the National Seniority List?

a) Initial Part 121 employment (with a "major airline")
b) Initial Part 121 employment with any airline/cargo outfit
c) Initial Part 135/121 employment/entry into CASS
d) Entry into (or Graduation from) Undergraduate Pilot Training (for military)
e) Initial employment as a pilot in any capacity (Including CFI/corporate)
f) Upon award of the ATP or CPL?
g) Any of the above
h) None of the above

Just curious as to how you guys would fairly integrate everybody into one seniority list.
 
Ooh, here's a half-thought out idea that I just had, but may disagree with by the time I finish the sentence...

How about ALPA issuing Part-121 ATPs... And at the point you receive an ATP and working for a unionized carrier, you're issued a seniority #.

I knew it would happen. Aww nevermind.
 
Dugie8 said:
In different "occupations" your abilities can be measured or quantified. The only real true measure of a pilot is safety, how is that measured, and more importantly measured fairly? The simple way to avoid this conundrum is to make everything based on longevity. It isn't perfect, but I can't really think of any other way to do things.
Click to expand...

Like I said, It's just a thought not a complaint.
 
"How about ALPA issuing Part-121 ATPs... And at the point you receive an ATP and working for a unionized carrier, you're issued a seniority #"

I like it. And how about you can't get an F/O job at an ALPA airline unless you have 1500 hours....
 
Doug Taylor said:
How about ALPA issuing Part-121 ATPs... And at the point you receive an ATP and working for a unionized carrier, you're issued a seniority #.
Click to expand...

Yeh.. That'd be about as popular as hemroids .... ;)


DE727UPS said:
how about you can't get an F/O job at an ALPA airline unless you have 1500 hours....
Click to expand...


While we are making up rules, I'd like to throw a few out there..

If you didn't do it the way *I* did it, you can't progress in the industry past me nor can you gain anything I did not gain prior to when *I* did.. *

Or...

If you did not fly in the military, you cannot fly 121... *



:D
 
Regardless of which side of the issue you are on, I think the astronomical issues and challenges in developing such a list will preclude it from ever happening.
 
We could always just assign it based on the last four of your social...who could argue with a fair system like that? :sarcasm:
 
Doug Taylor said:
Ooh, here's a half-thought out idea that I just had, but may disagree with by the time I finish the sentence...

How about ALPA issuing Part-121 ATPs... And at the point you receive an ATP and working for a unionized carrier, you're issued a seniority #.

I knew it would happen. Aww nevermind.
Click to expand...

Like the European multi pilot's license, that's supposed to come in the near future, when EASA takes place of the current JAA.
 
You guys just pointed out the REAL reason this will never go through.

Everybody thinks their idea is the right idea, and thinks that the other ideas are stabbing them in the back. Such as, "Oh that's BS, you're just trying to defend how YOU did things and how YOU want things done. MY way is better, look!"

With that, we'll go to defend our own ideas and we'll never actually move forward with fixing the problem, instead spending all our time trying to sabotage the next guys plans because they don't fall into line with our own. We have no leadership in our community, and nobody to stand up and say, "Hey ####ers! Stop ####ing squabbling and let's fix this problem before we all get hosed by management some more, because they love when we argue amongst ourselves."
 
I say it should be based on D.O.H of your first Part 121 airline. You accrue seniority as long as you are there. You stop accruing seniority if you leave for a non-Part 121 job, but you still retain what you have, and if you join another airline, you start accruing more seniority.

That said, I don't agree with a National Seniority List.
 
The first step would have to be at ALPA. You are issued an ALPA number when you become an active member. You carry that number forever.

The second step would be changing the ALPA Merger/Fragmentation policy to:

1. No bump and flush.
2. Seniority list sorted by ALPA number in any ALPA/ALPA merger.

The third step would be for other Union airlines to agree to allow their members to be granted a "de facto" ALPA number and agree to adhere to the ALPA Merger/Frag policy.

But, in reality, step two will NEVER happen, so step three is a moot point.
 
Another example that people are only self interested.

A marger/frag policy does little for me as an ALPA member at a part 121 regional. Why? Because the chances of having a true merger and list integration on my level is slim to none. Why not just do what Skywest has done with ASA and whipsaw the two pilot groups against each other?

What matters to me is furlough protection. I DO have a good chance of losing my job, and the thing that scares the piss out of me more than anything else is a THIRD year a first year pay, and a THIRD year at the bottom of a list. When the lower part of your list can't make enough money to stick their head above the poverty line, there's a problem.

That's an issue for me, but it won't be to the guys at the top of ALPA. Your biggest worry is being bought by Delta and getting hosed. My biggest worry is my company being underbid by Skywest and putting me on the street. It's easy to say "get out of the regionals ASAP," but it's generally easier said than done.
 
Actually, my version of the NSL would benefit YOU the most, train. Once you're an active member at XJT, you've got your permanent number. So, in 5 years when you get hired at a legacy, you'll still have that number.

In that hypothetical future merger, you would go ahead of everyone at BOTH carriers who got hired after you got hired at XJT. Why? You've been paying ALPA dues and been a member in good standing 5 years longer.

That should be worth something. In a REAL Union, it would be. In an "association" it isn't worth a bucket of warm spit.
 
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