National Airlines B747-400 Freighter (BCF) Down in Bagram, Afghanistan

[Mike H]

Horrible accident.

The only solace and it's a small one, is they felt no pain.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I hate to say it, but they may well have survived the pancake crash and burned to death in the fire. I'd have to hope that the crash landing rendered them unconscious, but that's not a sure thing.

 

[Alchemy]

Is a check of the cargo being secure part of a pre-flight? Just curious

Yes. One of the pilots, usually an F/O, is required to complete a "main deck procedure" prior to departure. It involves checking emergency equipment, checking condition and position of all doors and windows, verifying door control panel switches are configured properly and door locks are secure, verifying all the floor locks in every pallet position are "up", checking position, condition, segregation, and labeling of hazmat, checking condition of cargo nets/restraints, and checking for general condition of the pallets (among other things). That's the way it is where I work anyway, even if there is a dedicated loadmaster on board, we're still required to check it. Obviously I can't speak for National. The 747 has aisles on both sides of the main deck that my fat ass barely fits down (the aisle is maybe a foot wide?), but you walk down those to look at everything. Sometimes if the plane is completely full you can't get to the aisle on the aircraft's right; in that case you check what you can.

At the end of the day, a lot of trust still gets placed in the loadmasters, especially when dealing with outsized cargo or vehicles that can have a lot of complex restraints. I don't build pallets for a living, so I just use my best judgement and the manuals/guidelines I have to determine if everything looks suitable. When in doubt, you go tell the captain and the loadmasters, then make a decision once a potential issue has been brought to everyone's attention..

 

[FlyByWire22]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I hate to say it, but they may well have survived the pancake crash and burned to death in the fire. I'd have to hope that the crash landing rendered them unconscious, but that's not a sure thing.

Then why would you post this? Nobody wants to think about that possibility.

 

[pressclick]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I hate to say it, but they may well have survived the pancake crash and burned to death in the fire. I'd have to hope that the crash landing rendered them unconscious, but that's not a sure thing.

Seriously? Did you watch the video? Aint nobody surviving that impact.

And what a pointless thing to speculate about either way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[JFlighttt]

I'm not sure at what point, if ever, in an accident sequence you would simply say "I'm totally screwed here and going to die". On most accidents I would think (hope) you never hit that point and simply stay extremely busy trying to solve the problem. I hope this is the case as far as this crash goes.. RIP

This is one of those moments.

 

[Cruise]

I am sincerely so very very sorry for your loss. I know what it's like to lose fellow employees/crew in a crash/accident and it's just beyond horrible, unthinkable and so difficult to cope with and really shocking. I am heartfelt also to all of those on here who may have known the crew. There is not anything that one can say that really matters, or helps at a time like this, except for whatever it's worth, to reach out and let you know that we are here for you and that we do honestly care.

^^^This!^^^ I've been there, done that. It's not easy, that's for sure. What a terrible day for NAC.

 

[Inverted]

I couldn't believe the video, I still can't. One of the most horrific things I have seen. I am so sorry to the friends and family of the crew.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I couldn't believe the video, I still can't. One of the most horrific things I have seen. I am so sorry to the friends and family of the crew.

No kidding. One of my biggest motivations for being a safe pilot is so that my family won't have to see something like that on the news and then hear how crappy a pilot I was.

Unfortunately, sometimes you can do everything right and it doesn't matter...

 

[GX]

I'm not sure at what point, if ever, in an accident sequence you would simply say "I'm totally screwed here and going to die". On most accidents I would think (hope) you never hit that point and simply stay extremely busy trying to solve the problem. I hope this is the case as far as this crash goes.. RIP

There are websites around with the cockpit voice recordings through an incident, and in every one of them, they were locked in and committed to saving the airplane until the end. I know this to be especially true in the Alaska Airlines incident off of LA. The on-scene commander was a US Coast Guard Commander at the time who I know quite well.

That video took my breath away this morning, and it took me a moment to process. Sometimes I wish that I could un-see things. This is one of those moments. My deepest condolences to the friends and family of the crew. Especially to the woman who is left a widow 2 weeks after getting married.

 

[Inverted]

MSNBC was running back to back episodes of How Planes Crash a day or two ago. I remember yelling at the TV when they showed the pilot error one. They are forever remembered as people doing stupid things. This video doesn't look like the case. Even if there was some oversight or a mistake made, I doubt we will be making fun of this crew anytime soon. Unless they recover the black box (which I doubt they will) and find out they wanted to see what kind of climb rate the 747 could get. I have always had that fear of being forever remembered a doing something dumb, being killed, and sure enough somebody filmed it.

 

[juxtapilot]

I've been trying to avoid watching that video... I have no desire to see it and don't think I can learn anything from it... But then of course the local news puts it on and I catch a glimpse of it, I leave the room and come back and they're discussing how airplanes crash while replaying it. I just don't know why that video is so important for the average joe. Perhaps the investigators can use it to help in the investigation but I just don't see why it needs to be all over TV. Just watching people die in that terrible accident is just terrible. Makes me feel sick..

 

[ppragman]

I've been trying to avoid watching that video... I have no desire to see it and don't think I can learn anything from it... But then of course the local news puts it on and I catch a glimpse of it, I leave the room and come back and they're discussing how airplanes crash while replaying it. I just don't know why that video is so important for the average joe. Perhaps the investigators can use it to help in the investigation but I just don't see why it needs to be all over TV. Just watching people die in that terrible accident is just terrible. Makes me feel sick..

Don't disagree, kind of sad that in our culture you can watch people die on YouTube, but not see a boob. Just wait until you see it in real life, try not to think about it, but really, we're damn close to a violent end most of the time.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I've been trying to avoid watching that video... I have no desire to see it and don't think I can learn anything from it... But then of course the local news puts it on and I catch a glimpse of it, I leave the room and come back and they're discussing how airplanes crash while replaying it. I just don't know why that video is so important for the average joe. Perhaps the investigators can use it to help in the investigation but I just don't see why it needs to be all over TV. Just watching people die in that terrible accident is just terrible. Makes me feel sick..

As pilots, we can watch the video and place ourselves in the situation- since it could be us at any time. What could we have done to try to get out of this upset- or, if this was a no win scenario, what could we have done in a similar scenario where exceptional response to jet upset would be survivable? We have to assume that every situation we are in is survivable until we hit the ground or fly out of it. One of the best ways to respect those lost in accidents is to learn from what they went through.

There is a lot of emotion to be had with this situation, and rightfully so. There comes a time where you need to set the emotion aside and learn. Emotion has no place in an aircraft in distress- only fighting until the very end like they obviously did.

May they all rest in peace.

 

[Polar742]

Is a check of the cargo being secure part of a pre-flight? Just curious

Yes at my shop.

 

[flyingbum]

Just saw the video. The loud thud of the impact is bone chilling scary.

 

[tomokc]

Just read a report stating that witnesses observed the aircraft climb through approximately 1,200 feet when its nose sharply rose and the aircraft stalled. A listener on the frequency said that the crew reported the aircraft stalled due to a possible load shift. The aircraft was carrying five military vehicles and a crew of eight.

 

[jmreii]

Yes. One of the pilots, usually an F/O, is required to complete a "main deck procedure" prior to departure. It involves checking emergency equipment, checking condition and position of all doors and windows, verifying door control panel switches are configured properly and door locks are secure, verifying all the floor locks in every pallet position are "up", checking position, condition, segregation, and labeling of hazmat, checking condition of cargo nets/restraints, and checking for general condition of the pallets (among other things). That's the way it is where I work anyway, even if there is a dedicated loadmaster on board, we're still required to check it. Obviously I can't speak for National. The 747 has aisles on both sides of the main deck that my fat ass barely fits down (the aisle is maybe a foot wide?), but you walk down those to look at everything. Sometimes if the plane is completely full you can't get to the aisle on the aircraft's right; in that case you check what you can.

At the end of the day, a lot of trust still gets placed in the loadmasters, especially when dealing with outsized cargo or vehicles that can have a lot of complex restraints. I don't build pallets for a living, so I just use my best judgement and the manuals/guidelines I have to determine if everything looks suitable. When in doubt, you go tell the captain and the loadmasters, then make a decision once a potential issue has been brought to everyone's attention..

The buck stops with National Airlines. We can observe two similar accidents involving load shifts and CG problems resulting in recent accidents in the US. Neither operator is in business today once the FAA increased their scrutiny of these operations.

 

[WestIndian425]

One of my former co-workers was on that plane
Don't have the words.

Are you serious?! Someone I know?

Like everyone else, watching the video really hurt.

 

[RRPower]

Just watched again and have a question for the 74 drivers. I noticed that the gear was still down. In normal ops, isn't it gear-up rather quickly after you leave the runway? I wonder why it was still hanging that far into the sequence (not that it would have probably made a difference but who knows)?

If you watch closely, the gear wasn't down but coming down (or up). The nose gear door is open and the gear is not quite all the way down. The main landing gear was about halfway down (or up) as well. They might have been lowering it thinking they were going to have to set it down if they were ever able to gain control...which as we know is impossible. As soon as that cargo shifted, their fate was sealed. RIP

 

[Jet]

If you watch closely, the gear wasn't down but coming down (or up). The nose gear door is open and the gear is not quite all the way down. The main landing gear was about halfway down (or up) as well. They might have been lowering it thinking they were going to have to set it down if they were ever able to gain control...which as we know is impossible. As soon as that cargo shifted, their fate was sealed. RIP

They might have dropped the gear to shift the CG back forward a little to help get the nose down, along with aggressive banking momentarily to drop the nose. I know this is always in the back of a lot of people's minds after the B1900 crash in Charlotte. RIP to the crew.