National Airlines B747-400 Freighter (BCF) Down in Bagram, Afghanistan

[Hacker15e]

along with aggressive banking momentarily to drop the nose.

I don't see any evidence that there is enough airflow that any of the control surfaces would be able to effect any maneuver at all throughout what we see on the video. The wing drop to the right and the subsequent nose drop is purely aerodynamic IMHO.

 

[Inverted]

I don't see any evidence that there is enough airflow that any of the control surfaces would be able to effect any maneuver at all throughout what we see on the video. The wing drop to the right and the subsequent nose drop is purely aerodynamic IMHO.

Agreed.

 

[Murdoughnut]

If you watch closely, the gear wasn't down but coming down (or up). The nose gear door is open and the gear is not quite all the way down. The main landing gear was about halfway down (or up) as well. They might have been lowering it thinking they were going to have to set it down if they were ever able to gain control...which as we know is impossible. As soon as that cargo shifted, their fate was sealed. RIP

I would imagine in that situation you would just dump everything you've got, as the status quo ain't getting you anywhere. Read a story years ago about a crew (60s or 70s maybe) that got caught in coffin corner, and ended up in some sort of awful inverted oscillation. Pulled it out by completely dirtying up the aircraft.

 

[jtrain609]

I don't see any evidence that there is enough airflow that any of the control surfaces would be able to effect any maneuver at all throughout what we see on the video. The wing drop to the right and the subsequent nose drop is purely aerodynamic IMHO.

+1

 

[tomokc]

They might have dropped the gear to shift the CG back forward a little to help get the nose down, along with aggressive banking momentarily to drop the nose. I know this is always in the back of a lot of people's minds after the B1900 crash in Charlotte. RIP to the crew.

Although the rudder will have some affect in a stall, the ailerons are pretty useless. I don't think they were trying to change any axis except longitudinal - getting the nose down and putting more air over the wings.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I don't see any evidence that there is enough airflow that any of the control surfaces would be able to effect any maneuver at all throughout what we see on the video. The wing drop to the right and the subsequent nose drop is purely aerodynamic IMHO.

Not being a smartass, but isn't that contradictory? Aerodynamics requires airflow, no?

 

[Dugie8]

Not being a smartass, but isn't that contradictory? Aerodynamics requires airflow, no?

Think in terms of aerodynamic effectiveness. The wing drop is from lack of "effectiveness". Etc.

 

[SteveCostello]

Not being a smartass, but isn't that contradictory? Aerodynamics requires airflow, no?

Perhaps he means purely aerodynamic in that there is a LACK of much in the way of aerodynamic forces... and gravity took over.

 

[Jet]

Although the rudder will have some affect in a stall, the ailerons are pretty useless. I don't think they were trying to change any axis except longitudinal - getting the nose down and putting more air over the wings.

We aren't talking about a simple stall recovery here. We are talking about banking the plane to lower the nose before a stall occurs assuming you don't have enough elevator (for whatever reason, aft CG or flight control failure). The idea is to keep the nose from pointing towards straight up to keep the airspeed up thus preventing a stall. I don't know if that is what that crew was trying but the weight shift might have been too severe and there wasn't enough altitude/airspeed.

 

[jtrain609]

I think you guys may be over thinking this. As far as I can see, it looks like one wing stalled, and they started to stall/spin, and then as the nose dropped and the wing picked up speed it started flying again, about at the point that the aircraft impacted the ground. This is no different than any other stall where one wing drops first.

 

[Jet]

I don't see any evidence that there is enough airflow that any of the control surfaces would be able to effect any maneuver at all throughout what we see on the video. The wing drop to the right and the subsequent nose drop is purely aerodynamic IMHO.

Well, that's a pretty bad situation to be in.

 

[Stomp16]

I imagine if the shift went aft during the nose-up, that once the nose came over due to the stall, all the weight shifted forward and there wasn't anywhere near the required speed over the horizontal stabilizer to be effective enough to pull up and out of the nose low attitude. They needed more altitude to increase the airflow over the tail making it effective enough to pitch back up and level. However, if all five vehicles shifted as far forward as they could during the nose over, then maybe no amount of airflow over the tail would make it effective enough to pull up to straight and level.

 

[SteveCostello]

I imagine if the shift went aft during the nose-up, that once the nose came over due to the stall, all the weight shifted forward and there wasn't anywhere near the required speed over the horizontal stabilizer to be effective enough to pull up and out of the nose low attitude. They needed more altitude to increase the airflow over the tail making it effective enough to pitch back up and level. However, if all five vehicles shifted as far forward as they could during the nose over, then maybe no amount of airflow over the tail would make it effective enough to pull up to straight and level.

Eesh. I didn't even think about all that stuff coming back forward (a la the C2 cat shot video from a few pages ago). What a nightmare. Just no saving it, no matter what you do.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I was actually surprised by how quickly the a/c returned to the flat position it held at impact - not sure if that's a testament to how far aft the CG was or what. Would think that cargo moving forward again would have made that more difficult.

 

[mshunter]

I imagine if the shift went aft during the nose-up, that once the nose came over due to the stall, all the weight shifted forward and there wasn't anywhere near the required speed over the horizontal stabilizer to be effective enough to pull up and out of the nose low attitude. They needed more altitude to increase the airflow over the tail making it effective enough to pitch back up and level. However, if all five vehicles shifted as far forward as they could during the nose over, then maybe no amount of airflow over the tail would make it effective enough to pull up to straight and level.

I would think that the acceleration would keep it pretty well stuck in the back.

 

[derg]

I don't see any evidence that there is enough airflow that any of the control surfaces would be able to effect any maneuver at all throughout what we see on the video. The wing drop to the right and the subsequent nose drop is purely aerodynamic IMHO.

My two other pilots, one USMCIP and the other USAIP concur.

 

[SteveCostello]

I would think that the acceleration would keep it pretty well stuck in the back.

After rewatching the video, I think you may be right. She was on her side longer than she was pointed down.

Yeesh. What a crappy way to spend the last 10 seconds of your life. I cannot even imagine what would have been going through their minds. Simply terrifying.

 

[mshunter]

After rewatching the video, I think you may be right. She was on her side longer than she was pointed down.

Yeesh. What a crappy way to spend the last 10 seconds of your life. I cannot even imagine what would have been going through their minds. Simply terrifying.

There is a policy on this website that prevents what would be going through mine. I hope I never line a moment like that.

 

[brent p h]

I don't see any evidence that there is enough airflow that any of the control surfaces would be able to effect any maneuver at all throughout what we see on the video. The wing drop to the right and the subsequent nose drop is purely aerodynamic IMHO.

Also noteworthy was the very steep (maybe 30 degree nose up climb angle...and gear still extended.

 

[Hacker15e]

Also noteworthy was the very steep (maybe 30 degree nose up climb angle...and gear still extended.

That is pretty typical for cargo departures out of Bagram. Not only is OAIX surrounded on 3 sides by 15,000' mountains, but they want to climb quickly out of the small arms envelope.

I agree with what some others have speculated that, if the cargo shifted right after rotation, raising the gear wasn't high on the list of critical actions to maintain aircraft control.