Multi Crew Pilot Licenses

[ppragman]

For sure. I wish that my company had some of that stuff on all of it's aircraft. Some of the most interesting flying that I've done was flying a chieftan VMC down Owens Valley at night with a few landings in between. I've never been more "clinched" than when I've taken off out of Mammoth Lakes California on moonless night off of runway 27. It's probably one of the most spookiest things that I've ever done in an airplane honestly.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KMMH

I believe it, and that is spooky.

No moon, no lights, no real reference, where night flying is essentially IMC, even though you've got plenty of "visibility" and the ceilings are "plenty high." Yeah, throw the 250TT guy in the right seat on that run and see what kind of decision making he employs. Right. I hate (absolutely hate) being at night near terrain in "VMC" with VFR equipment only. Glad I've got it easy now with my Chelton EFIS.

 

[KLB]

I believe it, and that is spooky.

No moon, no lights, no real reference, where night flying is essentially IMC, even though you've got plenty of "visibility" and the ceilings are "plenty high." Yeah, throw the 250TT guy in the right seat on that run and see what kind of decision making he employs. Right. I hate (absolutely hate) being at night near terrain in "VMC" with VFR equipment only. Glad I've got it easy now with my Chelton EFIS.

Yep and the thing about that run is that it's a VFR run! Even more spooky is that it was done in a Lance for a long time!

 

[ppragman]

Yep and the thing about that run is that it's a VFR run! Even more spooky is that it was done in a Lance for a long time!

I dunno, I've always considered VFR flying to be significantly more difficult than IFR flying in a lot of ways. The actual flying in the clouds is only part of it. VFR requires you to be flexible, make stuff up as you go along, change your altitude, heading, and airspeed as required to maintain situational awareness and avoid mountainous terrain, then when you come in, if you're in SVFR, or in marginal conditions you basically have to shoot an approach to find the airport in the first place, except you're the one who makes up the approach, and you're the one who has to make sure you're not going to hit anything, and you're the one who has to find out when to turn around. I dunno, sketchy mountainous VFR flying, or VFR in crappy weather has always been tougher for me than taxi, takeoff, fly the DP, fly enroute, fly the arrival, fly the approach, hit mins then cut and dry yes or no do I continue in, then go missed fly to airport 2 and fly the approach and land. But that's just me.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I dunno, I've always considered VFR flying to be significantly more difficult than IFR flying in a lot of ways. The actual flying in the clouds is only part of it. VFR requires you to be a complete cowboy in Alaska. IFR just means taxi, takeoff, fly the DP, fly enroute, fly the arrival, fly the approach, hit mins then cut and dry yes or no do I continue in, then go missed fly to airport 2 and fly the approach and land. But that's just me.

God I love IFR. Fixed the above for you

 

[KLB]

God I love IFR.

I do also in most cases. Some of those VFR runs was the most beautiful and scenic flying that I've ever done though.

 

[DeuceOfAces]

Question from a newb .

I wonder if this MCPL will be the American equivalent of the ab-initio programs most European and Asian airlines already use.

So far, it sounds as if the MCPL would pose a significant barrier to entry to the airline piloting profession since you must pass a series of rigourous examinations before you're awarded a certificate versus the way it is now where anyone with a pulse and a sufficiently large credit line can buy (sort of) their certificates. It seems to me that this could be a first step towards improving the pay and QOL of pilots since airline managers would realize that pilots and their skills are not commodities but a valuable asset of which there is limited supply. According to my economics professor, when demand (for pilots, in this case) rises and the supply decreases (no more pilot mills), prices (wages) will increase. I guess in a perfect world, each airline would select a few promising candidate pilots from a pool then train them from 0 TT to FO then 1200 hour ATP-rated PIC, right?

Of course, this doesn't apply to all the pilots who would just want to fly part 135 or part 91.

 

[OldTownPilot]

1200 hours HA! try dropping a 0 from that.

Its a special license that mostly involves simulator training all done in a 2 pilot environment. These pilots would have ZERO real PIC time when they are flying around with people in the back.

 

[ppragman]

God I love IFR. Fixed the above for you

I do also in most cases. Some of those VFR runs was the most beautiful and scenic flying that I've ever done though.

Bingo, I'm hoping to get into the chieftain here so I can start flying IFR, this VFR stuff can wear on you after awhile. It is beautiful a lot, because you can be like, "hey, I haven't had a day good enough to check out this glacier in awhile, so sweet, I think I'll dogleg off course and take a look."

That being said, this is nothing compared to towing banners (from which I've heard some ungodly stories) spraying fields, or being a professional ferry pilot. I can't imagine climbing into some random dudes machine, and taking off with only essentially a 100-hr inspection. Or flying some clapped out cub with parts practically falling off of the thing. Ugh.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Flying banners, pipeline patrol, instructing, etc... do virtually nothing to prepare you for the decision-making skills and judgement that you'll need to fly 121.

Hee! Out shilling for the Alma Mater?

So a couple hundred hours in a box on jacks running prefab scenarios and cramming info through rote is just as valuable, nay MORE valuable, than flying an actual airplane for thousands of hours with real emergencies in real weather, etc? I find this difficult to imagine. However, I am not aviator enough to polish the shoes of a Real 121 Pilot, so...

 

[Matt13C]

Question from a newb .

I wonder if this MCPL will be the American equivalent of the ab-initio programs most European and Asian airlines already use.

So far, it sounds as if the MCPL would pose a significant barrier to entry to the airline piloting profession since you must pass a series of rigourous examinations before you're awarded a certificate versus the way it is now where anyone with a pulse and a sufficiently large credit line can buy (sort of) their certificates. It seems to me that this could be a first step towards improving the pay and QOL of pilots since airline managers would realize that pilots and their skills are not commodities but a valuable asset of which there is limited supply. According to my economics professor, when demand (for pilots, in this case) rises and the supply decreases (no more pilot mills), prices (wages) will increase. I guess in a perfect world, each airline would select a few promising candidate pilots from a pool then train them from 0 TT to FO then 1200 hour ATP-rated PIC, right?

Of course, this doesn't apply to all the pilots who would just want to fly part 135 or part 91.

In a perfect world perhaps, but the reality will not be anything like what you describe. You need to ask yourself, Why would management want this if it would force them to INCREASE pay and QOL? They wouldnt. It is a tool for them to have complete control over the supply of pilots, thus eliminating a huge bargaining chip pilots have come negotiation time.

If they see demand growing, bring more on board train them and pay them minimum wage but claim to be paying two or three times that when they factor in training as compensation. Demand falls, dump them back on the streets, plenty more where they came from if they dont want to come back. It is pay for training under a "probationary period" name.

Now, if there is a set minimum, 1500 ATP standard, that puts the power in the hands of the pilots. Raise training standards to make it harder to earn a license, so not just anyone can pass, like in Europe, and the power shifts even more to the pilots. Why would management fight this if it meant more experienced pilots that they didnt have to pay for? As before, because it doesnt give them control and it can be used against them.

 

[cmill]

Hee! Out shilling for the Alma Mater?

So a couple hundred hours in a box on jacks running prefab scenarios and cramming info through rote is just as valuable, nay MORE valuable, than flying an actual airplane for thousands of hours with real emergencies in real weather, etc? I find this difficult to imagine. However, I am not aviator enough to polish the shoes of a Real 121 Pilot, so...

Well, what you didnt realize is that 121 flying is like a BMW: the ultimate flying experience.

After all, you have two pilots, a uniion, a crew in the back, strict maintenance, more displays than a sports bar, you go 100nm around even the slightest precip, and even if both engines flame out you're climbing to FL410 so you've go plenty of time to... well, never mind on that one.

So ATN, please tell me, exactly how 121 pilots are so much more superior to pilots flying around by themselves, night IMC in the ice, /U, in a single-engine plane from leeroy's hot cessna lot?

Or have I just not reached a high enough level of skill and professionalsim to understand?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Hee! Out shilling for the Alma Mater?

Hardly. GIA has nothing to do with MPL, and as you know, I'm opposed to PFT.

So a couple hundred hours in a box on jacks running prefab scenarios and cramming info through rote is just as valuable, nay MORE valuable, than flying an actual airplane for thousands of hours with real emergencies in real weather, etc? I find this difficult to imagine. However, I am not aviator enough to polish the shoes of a Real 121 Pilot, so...

Take a look at ALPA's policy on MPL. It includes a significant amount of actual flying time, not just sim time. It's not the same proposal as the typical industry MPL program.

 

[KLB]

So ATN, please tell me, exactly how 121 pilots are so much more superior to pilots flying around by themselves, night IMC in the ice, /U, in a single-engine plane from leeroy's hot cessna lot/chicken shack?

Or have I just not reached a high enough level of skill and professionalsim to understand?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So ATN, please tell me, exactly how 121 pilots are so much more superior to pilots flying around by themselves, night IMC in the ice, /U, in a single-engine plane from leeroy's hot cessna lot?

Who said that 121 pilots are superior? I certainly didn't. It's just a very different environment, and experience in one doesn't prepare you for experience in the other. I would be absolutely lost flying single-pilot in a Cessna in the middle of the night in icing conditions. Hell, I haven't flown a Cessna in 7+ years. I probably couldn't even start the damned thing.

But by the same token, flying a bunch of that kind of flying in no way prepares you for flying 121 in a jet aircraft.

 

[cmill]

Who said that 121 pilots are superior? I certainly didn't. It's just a very different environment, and experience in one doesn't prepare you for experience in the other. I would be absolutely lost flying single-pilot in a Cessna in the middle of the night in icing conditions. Hell, I haven't flown a Cessna in 7+ years. I probably couldn't even start the damned thing.

But by the same token, flying a bunch of that kind of flying in no way prepares you for flying 121 in a jet aircraft.

Well yes, and im not saying that flying the van allows me to hop into a 777. All im saying is, it really sounds like you're saying that throwin someone through a 100 hour training course will make them a better suited candidate than someone with a couple thousand hours flying in the suck.

If it seems like freight guys in particular get pretty defensive, its because its a slap in our face to say that our thousands of hours of stick time bustin our ass in crappy conditions isnt worth a damn; and could be easily replaced by someone with an MCL.

It really doesnt have anything to do with the plane you're flying. Anyone can be trained on any aircraft. But, when the fit hits the shan, and the flames our burning down the cockpit door, are you gonna fly in circles and run checklists? or are you gonna go back to your days of basic private training and land the damn airplane.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well yes, and im not saying that flying the van allows me to hop into a 777. All im saying is, it really sounds like you're saying that throwin someone through a 100 hour training course will make them a better suited candidate than someone with a couple thousand hours flying in the suck.

Not at all. But I do think that someone put through a properly-designed MPL program could make them a better candidate than most guys with 1000 hours of CFI or pipeline patrol time.

 

[jhugz]

Not at all. But I do think that someone put through a properly-designed MPL program could make them a better candidate than most guys with 1000 hours of CFI or pipeline patrol time.

Not to turn this into a crap-flinging contest but you would always tell me not to open my mouth on topics I don't know. Yet you seem to tell CFIs & cargo pilots that their experience is not worthwhile while you have never done that type of flying. I just passed 300 hrs of dual given and can't believe how well I refined my flying skills and knowledge. I couldn't even imagine what another 500 hrs. of instructing and then 1500 hrs. of single pilot ifr 135 stuff would do for me. It's hard for me to believe that a sim-jock / cruise relief pilot is better suited in the right seat of a jet then a CFI / 135 pilot.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Not to turn this into a crap-flinging contest but you would always tell me not to open my mouth on topics I don't know. Yet you seem to tell CFIs & cargo pilots that their experience is not worthwhile while you have never done that type of flying.

I was a CFI, and my comments about who makes a better 121 FO are based on experience with having all types of pilots in my right seat at PCL, from JetU grads to 135 freight pilots to furloughed NWA pilots.

 

[jhugz]

I was a CFI, and my comments about who makes a better 121 FO are based on experience with having all types of pilots in my right seat at PCL, from JetU grads to 135 freight pilots to furloughed NWA pilots.

Well I take back the CFI part, I thought from another thread you never got 'em.

From your past comment though are you implying that you would rather have a JetU grad in the right seat then a 135 freight dog?

 

[cmill]

Not at all. But I do think that someone put through a properly-designed MPL program could make them a better candidate than most guys with 1000 hours of CFI or pipeline patrol time.

Why not just make it easy and hire computer programers? Or even better, I know quite a few kids that have a couple hundred hours in the RJ on FSX, I even bet that they would pay like 50 bucks to sit in the right seat and then tell you all the ways that you're screwing up.


This isnt really directed at you or anyone else, just a rant.

I fail to see how getting in a plane and pressing buttons is considered "aviating." Sure, you're in the air, but when the correct sequences can be learned in a box, with absolutely no stick and rudder skill required, I think at some point we're not pilots any more, just systems engineers.

If the pay for a crop duster and a 777 captain were swapped, do you think people would be banging down the doors of crop dusting schools? I doubt it. Going out there in an air tractor a spraying requires a good bit of balls and a good bit of skill, some of it that probably cant be learned. How many 20 year olds do you see crop dusting, and how many on RJ's? I rest my case.

I think everyone should ask themselves, did you get into this industry to sit on your leather ass and draw a paycheck, or did you do it because you were in love with aviation.

Do you consider the glory days TWA and Pan am, or barnstormers and dogfights?

If someone told you right now that the most you would ever make as a pilot was 50k a year, would you stick in it, or go become a nurse?

And how come, do we all work so long and hard, for something we supposedly love, just to do less of it.