Multi Crew Pilot Licenses

[KLB]

Just my opinion but your program idea is WAY too long. 2-3 years flying the 1900 with a training captain? 1900 flying is much closer to GA flying than 121 jet ops. Training a MPL student for 2-3 years in an aircraft that is certified for single pilot ops is a complete waste of resources. I'm sorry but your training proposal sounds like it came from someone with a heavy GA background but little to no 121 jet experience.

I don't know man. I don't think a 1900 is comparable to a GA aircraft. Until you've been in the cockpit by yourself.....handflying it in the soup and ice, you'll never really understand! Also what were guys flying before the mid 90's before they went mainline? Mostly turboprops.

Most of the guys who have left my company and moved on to bigger and better things have said that there's no flying tougher than it. And thats talking to guys who now fly 747's on down!

 

[USMCmech]

Just my opinion but your program idea is WAY too long. 2-3 years flying the 1900 with a training captain? 1900 flying is much closer to GA flying than 121 jet ops. Training a MPL student for 2-3 years in an aircraft that is certified for single pilot ops is a complete waste of resources.

I'll give a little bit, the 3rd year could be in a RJ. The specific airframe isn't a big deal, but the type of flying (many short legs) is. Ideally the apprentice pilot would be rotated through the various enviroments (FL summer, NY winter, CO mountains, ect.) durring that time. Only then would he be released to fly with a line captain.

The point is that it takes TIME (a lot of time) to develop the judgment that is nessacary to be an airline pilot. A chimpanzee can be taught to fly an airplane, that's the easy part. Good decision making is something that only an experianced pilot can provide.

The Medical community gets this. Their training provides absolutely NO shortcuts. EVERY MD must be exposed to the various fields of medicine, even if they never expect to use them. Residents spend 3-7 years in apprenticeship before they are considered fully qualified.

There is a drastic shortage of primary physicians in this country. Do you hear the AMA talking about accelerating the training process? No, they are holding their standards high. This also has a positive effect on compensation, but that is NOT the primary motivation.


The insanity that happened at the regionals in 06-08 should not be allowed to happen again. It helped kill about 100 people. It resulted in countless other close calls. It kept wages at the poverty level.

Stopping it will require that the FAA hold the airlines to the standards that were self imposed 20 years ago. Requiring an ATP for both seats would be a good start.

 

[derg]

The AMA also controls compensation by controlling the outflow of med students.

In aviation, some analyst screams "pilot shortage!!!!" and we're more than happy to help them correct the "problem". The more we produce and the looser the requirements, the lower compensation will go.

If people think we're at rock bottom for compensation, we're not even close.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Most of the guys who have left my company and moved on to bigger and better things have said that there's no flying tougher than it. And thats talking to guys who now fly 747's on down!

It's not about what's "tougher." Yes, flying a 1900 without an autopilot hones your skills like nothing else. My hand flying skills have probably never been better than when I stopped flying the 1900, and that was thousands of hours ago. But that's not what Trip7 (or I) was talking about. Flying a swept wing jet is simply different than flying turboprops. Pinnacle 3701 proved that. The CA had nearly 6,000 of turboprop time, but he didn't have the slightest clue about flying swept wing jets, because he upgraded within months after coming to Pinnacle and had never flown a jet previously. He had no experience or proper training on how to safely operate a complex, swept wing, high altitude aircraft. You're better off with a 2,500 hour pilot with the right training and experience than a 10,000 pilot with nothing but GA VFR experience.

 

[29.92inHg]

Depends on the level of flight instruction.

This is exactly my point. Saying, training in a MPL program is better experience than Instructing or flying cargo for 121 purposes is way too general of a statement to cover everything. Do we really think that every person that comes through an MPL program would be a star. It's just not the way it works. I get that there can be more efficient ways of training, but just use interviews and training to find the right person. If they already have all of the ratings, and a couple thousand hours of experience, they are a lot farther along on the road to being properly trained. Then its just a matter of using a more thourough Initial training and holding a set standard.

 

[Trip7]

Todd I dont understand why people think you have to have this mystical amount of experience before you get into a jet. They put the jet on a pedestal. The earlier you get a student into a jet the better. This is why the military has an excellent training program. They dont spend 2 years training their F16 pilots in a turboprop.

 

[KLB]

Todd I dont understand why people think you have to have this mystical amount of experience before you get into a jet. They put the jet on a pedestal. The earlier you get a student into a jet the better. This is why the military has an excellent training program. They dont spend 2 years training their F16 pilots in a turboprop.

But some do train in turboprops before they fly jets though. Military training is better than civilian training because they wash the majority of the weak candidates. Whereas in civilian training, some of the weak candidates seem to sliver through the cracks and make it out on the line. I can tell by some of the regional airlines' interview processes that it's candidates are not properly vetted.

 

[ppragman]

Todd I dont understand why people think you have to have this mystical amount of experience before you get into a jet. They put the jet on a pedestal. The earlier you get a student into a jet the better. This is why the military has an excellent training program. They dont spend 2 years training their F16 pilots in a turboprop.

Its not flying the jet. Hell, that'd be the easy part. Its about being responsible for the 50+ people in the back. At 200TT you do not have either the stick and rudder or the judgment to be responsible for that many people in the airplane. The risk is too great.

 

[derg]

But some do train in turboprops before they fly jets though. Military training is better than civilian training because they wash the majority of the weak candidates. Whereas in civilian training, some of the weak candidates seem to sliver through the cracks and make it out on the line. I can tell by some of the regional airlines' interview processes that it's candidates are not properly vetted.

A weak candidate with enough money will succeed.

Also, a weak candidate at a carrier with staffing issues will succeed as well.

I'd like to see a national effort to set forth minimum experience requirements.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Flying a swept wing jet is simply different than flying turboprops. Pinnacle 3701 proved that. The CA had nearly 6,000 of turboprop time, but he didn't have the slightest clue about flying swept wing jets, because he upgraded within months after coming to Pinnacle and had never flown a jet previously.

Funny thing about that one...if he'd just reverted to basic airmanship and a) not toasted one of the engines (Engine number 2 ITT/TIT/EGT/whatever is measured on the CRJ went 300° CELSIUS above redline!) and b) let the nose down when the airplane screamed at him "hey dumbass, I'm stalling!" the accident never would have happened.

 

[KLB]

Funny thing about that one...if he'd just reverted to basic airmanship and a) not toasted one of the engines (Engine number 2 went 300° CELSIUS above redline!) and b) let the nose down when the airplane screamed at him "hey dumbass, I'm stalling!" the accident never would have happened.

None of those things have anything to do with the aircraft being a jet either.

 

[C150J]

Todd I dont understand why people think you have to have this mystical amount of experience before you get into a jet. They put the jet on a pedestal. The earlier you get a student into a jet the better. This is why the military has an excellent training program. They dont spend 2 years training their F16 pilots in a turboprop.

They spend a good deal of time in the Turbo Mentor, have to pass IFT (that might be a Navy-specific acronym, but I remember teaching those candidates), and the washout rate is high. Any way you cut it, the experience NEEDS to be there.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I wonder if the guys in Pinnacle 3701 had ever tried to take a 172 with a student and lots of gas on board to 10,000 on a hot day? If they had, maybe they would have recognized what was happening to their jet up at FL410.

 

[C150J]

I wonder if the guys in Pinnacle 3701 had ever tried to take a 172 with a student and lots of gas on board to 10,000 on a hot day? If they had, maybe they would have recognized what was happening to their jet up at FL410.

This is a major weak point of turbine transition/swept wing/high altitude aerodynamics. This stuff needs to be taught extensively. Just giving the definition of Mmo and Mcrit in INDOC is unacceptable.

 

[derg]

It's a littttttttle different, but I know what you're getting at!

 

[Roger, Roger]

This is a major weak point of turbine transition/swept wing/high altitude aerodynamics. This stuff needs to be taught extensively. Just giving the definition of Mmo and Mcrit in INDOC is unacceptable.

Right. But comprehensive training cuts into the bottom line. Oh teh noez!!11 More moneys!

 

[Roger, Roger]

It's a littttttttle different, but I know what you're getting at!

I'll take your word for it Dough, but trying to climb through a hole at 10,000 plus in a light twin had me thinking PCL3701 (stall warning, sluggish handling, loss of climb performance) minus the OMG our engines melted.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Its not flying the jet. Hell, that'd be the easy part.

Says the guy who's never flown a jet.

Funny thing about that one...if he'd just reverted to basic airmanship and a) not toasted one of the engines (Engine number 2 ITT/TIT/EGT/whatever is measured on the CRJ went 300° CELSIUS above redline!) and b) let the nose down when the airplane screamed at him "hey dumbass, I'm stalling!" the accident never would have happened.

I'm not getting into details on this one again, because it always devolves into a pissing contest on this website, but you simply don't have your facts straight on this case.

 

[surreal1221]

But some do train in turboprops before they fly jets though. Military training is better than civilian training because they wash the majority of the weak candidates. Whereas in civilian training, some of the weak candidates seem to sliver through the cracks and make it out on the line. I can tell by some of the regional airlines' interview processes that it's candidates are not properly vetted.

Correction:

They don't sliver through the cracks. . .

They keep writing checks, from mommy and daddy perhaps, to continue their training.

No school is going to turn away money.

More the reason for a maximum number of attempts and checkride failures during the primary training process in the civilian world. What those numbers are, I don't know. But I think we could have a wonderful discussion concerning just that.

For S&Gs, I say no more than two attempts at any checkride prior to one's CFI initial. No more than two failures from Private through CFI Initial. That'll do two things, make sure instructors are honestly ready to send that student for the checkride, and two, makes the student respect the training process and perhaps a nice slice of humble pie when they perhaps may watch their little dream of flying for a living evaporate because they might have to take this process just a little bit more seriously.

 

[Trip7]

What you guys are asking for is a training program that washes out weaker canidates, which I would be all for. The crashes that occurred recently at the regionals were caused not so much by a lack of experience, but a lack of pilot.

What we need to demand is not higher experience req, but better screening of 121 applicants.

Also, the MPL or any ab intio type program would be a heck of a lot better than the overly broad and unstandardized flight training system we currently have.