Multi Crew Pilot Licenses

[ppragman]

Not if ALPA does its job they wont! Your job is to protect pilots from management, not feed pilots to them slowly and hope nobody notices.

Congress and the FAA recognize the need for experience. Dont let them forget! Use your resources to drive that point home, remind them of 3407 anytime they want to implement an MPL program. Give them alternatives, which there are plenty.

I would love to see statisitcs on load averages during an economic boom. How many jets take off half full for the same destination in rapid succession? If that bottom feeder start up cant get pilots to fly their half full jet they cease to exist, those passengers jump into the empty space on the established airline and they fly a full jet to the same destination with well compensated pilots. Everyone still gets to their destination, everyone is happy.

For an unrelated set of stats about low time pilots read "the killing zone." That's one of many reasons why I'm not pro MPL.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Says the sub 500TT guy. Not to play "whose bigger!" but yeah, I didn't realize until I broke 1000TT how much of an idiot I'd been sub 1000TT, and didn't realize until I broke 2000TT how much of an idiot I'd been at times along the way up again. More experience is always better. You do fewer stupid things the more experience you get.

You honestly believe someone who has 1500 hours of banner towing is automatically a better pilot than someone who has 350 hours, just because they have so many more hours?

 

[Roger, Roger]

You honestly believe someone who has 1500 hours of banner towing is automatically a better pilot than someone who has 350 hours, just because they have so many more hours?

Overall, yup. Not as good as someone who has 1500 hours of instruction, but still better than the 350 hour guy. Except in some very unusual circumstances.

You might not realize it at 275 hours, and I barely realize it at 1100, but experience DOES matter.

 

[ppragman]

You honestly believe someone who has 1500 hours of banner towing is automatically a better pilot than someone who has 350 hours, just because they have so many more hours?

Actually, everybody I know whose towed banners has been a decent stick, and had judgment to boot. At 1500TT, you begin to mellow out a little.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Overall, yup. Not as good as someone who has 1500 hours of instruction, but still better than the 350 hour guy. Except in some very unusual circumstances.

You might not realize it at 275 hours, and I barely realize it at 1100, but experience DOES matter.

+1

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Overall, yup. Not as good as someone who has 1500 hours of instruction, but still better than the 350 hour guy. Except in some very unusual circumstances.

You might not realize it at 275 hours, and I barely realize it at 1100, but experience DOES matter.

Alright, fair enough. You've made your point. Guess its time to move on out of here then.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

1994?

I didn't take a shortcut, and have been eating, drinking, and breathing airplanes for 25 years. I admit that I've taken the slow boat to the cockpit, but I've realized that many things are much more important than a seniority number at a major.

Looks like we started flying at about the same time. I was instructing by 2001. The most valuable instructing experience I had, though, was sim instructing. Teaching instrument flying in the Frasca did more to help with preparing for airline flying than just about anything else.

You honestly believe someone who has 1500 hours of banner towing is automatically a better pilot than someone who has 350 hours, just because they have so many more hours?

Ridiculous, isn't it?

 

[OldTownPilot]

1500 hours of banner towing won't get you an ATP without all the required XC time.

Instructing all all that other stuff that a few people here throw around are not designed to make you a better airline pilot, but rather a better pilot. Its the airlines job in those 10-12 weeks of systems, CRM classes and sim sessions that are to make you a better airline pilot. If there is a problem with the lack of airline pilot skills thats where one should look, but I don't think that's where the issue lies. The glaring errors in the airlines as of late have been in basic airmanship which reducing the the pilot standards as far as experience goes will only worsen the frequency and the scale of those errors.

We've all seen the results of when someone's pilot bag o' tricks runs out. The best airline pilot tricks would have never saved 3407. A bigger bag o' pilot tricks would have.

edit: I refereed to the terms pilot and airline pilot as two distinct things, and the inclusion or exclusion of the word airline makes all the difference.

 

[ppragman]

Looks like we started flying at about the same time. I was instructing by 2001. The most valuable instructing experience I had, though, was sim instructing. Teaching instrument flying in the Frasca did more to help with preparing for airline flying than just about anything else.



Ridiculous, isn't it?

You haven't flown with too many banner jocks, bush rats, freight dawgs or meat missilears lately have you?

The frasca may have helped you prepare, but I honestly believe that the only thing that prepares you for emergencies and abnormal situations is more time in the seat. WIthout it, all you have is theoretical experience. Just my $.02.

 

[USMCmech]

You honestly believe someone who has 1500 hours of banner towing is automatically a better pilot than someone who has 350 hours, just because they have so many more hours?

YES!!

Because during those hours he has gained EXPERIANCE. He has taken off in crosswinds, he has dealt with mechanical problems, he has made mistakes, he has scared himself, he has mastered the art of flying, and a hundred other things that can never be taught in a classroom or simulator.

This argument proves the saying, "If I have to explain, you'll never understand".

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You haven't flown with too many banner jocks, bush rats, freight dawgs or meat missilears lately have you?

Flown with a bunch of them. Most of them couldn't fly a visual approach in the CRJ to save their lives until they got a few hundred hours in the RJ. In other words, no different than the 200 hour ATP graduate. Some of the best FOs I had were low-timers, and some of the worst were bush pilots or high-time part 135 freight guys. Sorry, but the conventional wisdom just doesn't hold true.

The frasca may have helped you prepare, but I honestly believe that the only thing that prepares you for emergencies and abnormal situations is more time in the seat. WIthout it, all you have is theoretical experience. Just my $.02.

Agreed. But in my opinion, the only way to develop that needed experience is in the right seat of an airliner, or at least a 135 operation. Flying banners, pipeline patrol, instructing, etc... do virtually nothing to prepare you for the decision-making skills and judgement that you'll need to fly 121.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Flown with a bunch of them. Most of them couldn't fly a visual approach in the CRJ to save their lives until they got a few hundred hours in the RJ. In other words, no different than the 200 hour ATP graduate. Some of the best FOs I had were low-timers, and some of the worst were bush pilots or high-time part 135 freight guys. Sorry, but the conventional wisdom just doesn't hold true.

My experience has been the more hours the better. The 135, and high timers, with only one notable exception, have universally been better than the 500 and under crowd. The Alaskan bush pilot was one of the best FO's I had.

Conventional wisdom has held true for me, and I'm not willing to give up on it just yet.

 

[OldTownPilot]

If I didn't know better I'd think I just stumbled across a Gulfstream marketing brochure.


And if that is what the future of flying is going to look like thats probably not a good thing.


Just how many of the last handful of accidents had gulfstreamers at the controls? Colgan, Comair, both Pinnacle pilots. And all of those can be directly attributed to what those pilots did and did not do, as far as pilot airmanship goes.

Emulating gulfstream does not seem like it would be an advancement in safety.

 

[C150J]

My experience has been the more hours the better. The 135, and high timers, with only one notable exception, have universally been better than the 500 and under crowd. The Alaskan bush pilot was one of the best FO's I had.

Conventional wisdom has held true for me, and I'm not willing to give up on it just yet.

I completely agree. Various psychological studies on intuition and judgement have proven (with tremendous statistical significance) that hunches/decisions are more accurate and quickly made with experience. I want the guy with a multitude of experience (including general life experience) over the guy who was trained to run a QRH.



NOW, would more standardized initial training be a good thing? YES! Capt. Rice's arguments are completely sound. When we have instrument pilots that somehow have never seen a DME arc or VOR approach no less(!?!?!?), we surely have a MAJOR problem.

 

[C150J]

The glaring errors in the airlines as of late have been in basic airmanship which reducing the the pilot standards as far as experience goes will only worsen the frequency and the scale of those errors.

Our operation's safety reporting program proves this, incident after incident.

Give me a good training program and experience and I'll show you a good candidate for professional flying.

 

[C150J]

I wanted to give you guys a scenario that exhibits lack of airmanship at the 121 level. Yes, this did happen, TWICE so far this year:

It's 1230AM local, and you're on frequency with center, which is the only radar service available at your destination. It's a moonless night and VMC, and you're 20NM from the field at 8,000 feet. The non-towered airport is located in a valley, but you've activated the the pilot controlled lighting and see the field. ATC clears you and cuts you loose/over to UNICOM. At this point you're on a 15NM left base. You decide to "just descend" to 1,000 feet above field elevation. Your GPWS alerts you to, "TERRAIN, TERRAIN," and then "PULL UP, PULL UP." You were about 500 feet above the valley's ridge, and had you descended as planned, you would've CFIT'd.

Both crews had "no idea." Neither cockpit had a captain with over 2,900 hours, or an FO with over 1,000 hours.


Had these individuals spent a little more time focusing on the intricacies of the basics - such as defensive night flying around terrain - we'd be conducting safer operations.

 

[Matt13C]

Wow. Even better. Make it so that your investment into your education gets so large, that being a doctor/lawyer would make more financial sense. I know you think you'll be able to get a ton of hours in the future by CFI'ing. That isn't going to happen. As it is now, there are many markets that are supersaturated with CFI's, some willing to fly for free. So, when we have 10x as many CFI's out there, its going to be next to impossible to get a student. And the number of career students is going to drop, once they see how much of an investment is going to be required.

There are still people begging to get into ERAU for 200k+ in debt to be an airline pilot and you are telling me that if the costs at an FBO, which I will complete for around 35k, went up a bit people would abandon there desire en masse?

I dont think I will do it all instructing, I honestly dont know how I will get it all done, but I will. There are a number of banner towing operations around my area, I can get my tailwheel rather cheaply and do that on weekends. There are skydive operations all over the place, Ill get that rating while I am there for fun. Aside from this last boom, all pilots had to go through this process.

I dont see requiring 1500 hours will change things all that much. I think most people will be in agreement that prior to the last hiring boom, there was never really a time where so many 250 hour wonder kids were hired. It wasnt required, but it was common to need 1000 or more to even have your resume looked at.

If your holding out hope that once hiring picks up your going to be into an airline job in a few months, I think your in for a rude awakening. How many pilots are furloughed right now? How many pilots have been CFI'ing for a few years or flying banners or freight? I think it will take a year or more for airlines to simply get back all their pilots off the street. Once that pool is depleted they will then start working through the high time pilots, from freight companies and other lower time pilot gigs. Current CFI's will fill that void and current students will fill the void of CFI's.

Lastly, everyone is expecting America to go back to the way it was. Spending loads of money, borrowed from equity in their houses or on credit cards. Those days have waved us long gone. People owe more than their homes are worth, credit card companies were bitch slapped by congress and wont be sending out those 0% apr for 2 year offers to everyone with a pulse.

People have started to save, they have seen that what was happening was not sustainable, many have lost it all. When we get into a legitimate turn around, I think you will see consumers hold onto some of their penny pinching ways.

 

[KLB]

I wanted to give you guys a scenario that exhibits lack of airmanship at the 121 level. Yes, this did happen, TWICE so far this year:

It's 1230AM local, and you're on frequency with center, which is the only radar service available at your destination. It's a moonless night and VMC, and you're 20NM from the field at 8,000 feet. The non-towered airport is located in a valley, but you've activated the the pilot controlled lighting and see the field. ATC clears you and cuts you loose/over to UNICOM. At this point you're on a 15NM left base. You decide to "just descend" to 1,000 feet above field elevation. Your GPWS alerts you to, "TERRAIN, TERRAIN," and then "PULL UP, PULL UP." You were about 500 feet above the valley's ridge, and had you descended as planned, you would've CFIT'd.

Both crews had "no idea." Neither cockpit had a captain with over 2,900 hours, or an FO with over 1,000 hours.


Had these individuals spent a little more time focusing on the intricacies of the basics - such as defensive night flying around terrain - we'd be conducting safer operations.

I don't understand how this could happen. When in doubt, just fly the MSA, minimum altitudes, MDA/DA's of the approach chart for the runway landing. It's the safest way to do it IMHO. Atleast that's I do it in VMC conditions into unfamiliar airports. I don't play around with terrain!

 

[ppragman]

I don't understand how this could happen. When in doubt, just fly the MSA, minimum altitudes, MDA/DA's of the approach chart for the runway landing. It's the safest way to do it IMHO. Atleast that's I do it in VMC conditions into unfamiliar airports. I don't play around with terrain!

I know, mountains have a funny way of reaching out and touching you if you're not prepared. Frankly, I wish the TAWS and Terrain Mapping and Synthetic Vision we have on our ships was required everywhere. It makes safely making that "can I descend?" question a lot easier. Nothing scarier than realizing you've just descended too low because you read the plate wrong, or can't start the approach yet because you're still running off of the DME from the VOR and not off of the LOC. CFIT is still one of the leading causes of Pilot Error Based Statistics.

 

[KLB]

I know, mountains have a funny way of reaching out and touching you if you're not prepared. Frankly, I wish the TAWS and Terrain Mapping and Synthetic Vision we have on our ships was required everywhere. It makes safely making that "can I descend?" question a lot easier. Nothing scarier than realizing you've just descended too low because you read the plate wrong, or can't start the approach yet because you're still running off of the DME from the VOR and not off of the LOC. CFIT is still one of the leading causes of Pilot Error Based Statistics.

For sure. I wish that my company had some of that stuff on all of it's aircraft. Some of the most interesting flying that I've done was flying a chieftan VMC down Owens Valley at night with a few landings in between. I've never been more "clinched" than when I've taken off out of Mammoth Lakes California on moonless night off of runway 27. It's probably one of the most spookiest things that I've ever done in an airplane honestly.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KMMH