Multi Crew Pilot Licenses

[FlyingPoke]

I think it's a good idea, if we can steer MPL in that direction. If you cross your arms and scream at the top of your lungs that MPL is evil, and you refuse to even discuss it, then it will end up being something far worse than you could ever imagine, and you still won't be able to stop it. A little common sense and political sense go a long way.

Hm, ya that 'pilot shortage' we've all heard about forever sounds like a real drag. What a terrible thing that would be for the CURRENT pilots working in this industry of top notch pay and respectable airline employers. How about just saying 'NO' and squashing the idea of this altogether instead of saying 'Maybe, if you do this'... because we all know the scum in the offices will find a loophole anyway.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Man, you're going to have to do some serious acrobatics to sell stuffing the best meat a hundred hours of sim time can buy in to the right seat and calling it a Victory for Teh Professhunz.

Just so we all get it straight:

Gulfstream is bad, MCPL is good. Not because it's good, but because it's inevitable. Which Gulfstream isn't. Except for those who didn't know any better.

Anyone else hear the drawbridge being raised?

 

[deadstick]

Anyone else hear the drawbridge being raised?

No. It's the new delivery for RAH, Skywest, et al, cranking up. It's more appropriate than an airliner.

"Dress for the job you want, not the one you have."

 

[A320_DUDE]

Don't "dog" the Hound....1st year pay averages 35-40k.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Hm, ya that 'pilot shortage' we've all heard about forever sounds like a real drag. What a terrible thing that would be for the CURRENT pilots working in this industry of top notch pay and respectable airline employers. How about just saying 'NO' and squashing the idea of this altogether instead of saying 'Maybe, if you do this'... because we all know the scum in the offices will find a loophole anyway.

There's not going to be any shortage. There will be a reduction in the availability of experienced pilots, but it will be filled in one fashion or another, just as it always has been. The last real shortage was in the '60s, and UAL responded by hiring private pilots and training them from the ground up, then tossing them into the right seat of a 707 with 200 hours. When the regionals had a shortage a couple of years ago, they responded by going to schools like ATP and working out "pref hiring agreements" that got them freshly minted pilots with as little as 190 hours.

"Just saying 'no'" will get you nowhere except locked out of the process, leaving the ATA and a bunch of politicians to write the rules without your input. Sound like a good idea? You won't like the results. For example, if ALPA hadn't been involved in the drafting of the Age 65 law, retired pilots could have returned with seniority. ALPA's involvement fixed that very quickly. If you lock yourself out of the process by crossing your arms and screaming "NO," then you'll be accomplishing nothing more than allowing a bunch of incompetent fools and corrupt airline managers to decide the fate of your profession. Smart move.

 

[Trip7]

Don't "dog" the Hound....1st year pay averages 35-40k.

You guys are funny with this Greyhound thing. Average pay is 35k at Greyhound, so I'm guessing Greyhound starting pay must be lower than that.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...rivers_25emp.ART0.State.Edition1.2008bc1.html

Top dog

There is also Dallas' 900-pound dog: Greyhound. Working for this company offers another kind of experience from charter driving. Mr. Austin cites "a real different dynamic among passengers."
Whereas in the charter business the passengers want to travel together, a commercial bus company carries people who do not know each other. "Greyhound drivers might be more authoritarian," Mr. Austin says. "Charter drivers would be more of a buddy."
That aside, commercial companies may offer better employment opportunities. Greyhound is the nation's largest bus company, with almost 3,000 drivers based in 80 places across the country – 275 drivers in Texas alone. The drivers are on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Average pay is $35,000 with top salary "up in the 50s," said Bruce Hamilton, president of the National Local Amalgamated Transit Union, which represents Greyhound drivers and mechanics. Medical benefits, a 401(k) company match, sick leave, holiday pay and vacation pay are all in the package.
And unlike charter companies, Greyhound will hire novices and train them. Applicants must complete a seven-week defensive driving training course at one of the company's training schools. Eventually, they drive with an instructor for one week and then go through a two-week schedule with an experienced driver along for the ride.
"Before students become Greyhound drivers, they will have logged a total of 100 driving hours," says spokeswoman Anna Folmnsbee.

 

[BCTAv8r]

I can't say that if an airline offered to pay for my training, that I wouldn't take the opportunity.

I don't see how it is different from me having applied to the Cathay cadet program.

 

[A320_DUDE]

Off Topic

1st year pay is dependent on hard you want to work. Example if all you want to do is a NYC-Atlantic City quick turn then you are not gonna make any money. But if you don't mind working up to your 10 hours of driving/15 hrs on duty limits,money can be made.

At my company mimmum 1st year pay is 35k and that's just sitting on your ass STAA somewhere.

Add to the fact GLI has a strong union that is not afraid to strike(they have shut down that company twice in recent years, and very good benifits, it not a bad career. Don't "dog" it because it seems like menial work, it's not.

Back to Topic

 

[Trip7]

Off Topic

1st year pay is dependent on hard you want to work. Example if all you want to do is a NYC-Atlantic City quick turn then you are not gonna make any money. But if you don't mind working up to your 10 hours of driving/15 hrs on duty limits,money can be made.

At my company mimmum 1st year pay is 35k and that's just sitting on your ass STAA somewhere.

Add to the fact GLI has a strong union that is not afraid to strike(they have shut down that company twice in recent years, and very good benifits, it not a bad career. Don't "dog" it because it seems like menial work, it's not.

Back to Topic

I make more than the average Greyhound bus driver. And I'm just a lowly 2nd year regional FO

Anyways, the bus driving thing is not a bad way to make living, especially if that's what you love to do. My point is the whole pilot-bus driver thing has sort of exaggerated. It only comes remotely close if you're comparing an experienced driver with a 1st yr regional FO.

 

[deadstick]

Don't "dog" the Hound....1st year pay averages 35-40k.

They probably have a better contract.

 

[A320_DUDE]

It only comes remotely close if you're comparing an experienced driver with a 1st yr regional FO.

I agree...but I think its sad that a rookie driver makes more than a 1st year regional F/O that has spent 30 to 70k on his education. And that coming from someone who is proud of the profession that I am currently in.

Greyhound will hire novices and train them. Applicants must complete a seven-week defensive driving training course at one of the company's training schools. Eventually, they drive with an instructor for one week and then go through a two-week schedule with an experienced driver along for the ride.

The guys that have come out of the GLI program are among the best in the business. The may seem like greenhorns when released on the like,but they are running like the old timers very quickly. That is why I think "maybe" MCPL could be a good idea. A "Cathay" like program could be a good thing if implemeted and run properly.

IMHO, I think the opposition to this is mainly that this is seen as a shortcut, but I ask this question. What is the difference in the GLI 10 week program and say a 90 day "0 to hero" program that United or Delta might bring. Both are transporting passengers safely and wouldd get their respective applicants to the job they want in good time

 

[seaav8tor]

and training will be paid for by the airline.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

 

[seaav8tor]

UAL responded by hiring private pilots and training them from the ground up, then tossing them into the right seat of a 707 with 200 hours. When the regionals had a shortage a couple of years ago, they responded by going to schools like ATP and working out "pref hiring agreements" that got them freshly minted pilots with as little as 190 hours.

FE seat. Very big difference. And the right seat of a 3 person crew airplane was cake. Not the same. Not even close so don't go there.

Do you think for one nano second that the AMA would allow anything like this to happen to surgeons? hint: no.

And there is a shortage in medicine. And it is there by design of the AMA.

 

[Alchemy]

I can't believe ALPA is supporting this garbage, and I will make these feelings known to my reps, not that it will make much difference.

It's not hard. Require an ATP for 121. The end. No loopholes, exceptions, or bribes.

 

[derg]

I can't believe ALPA is supporting this garbage, and I will make these feelings known to my reps, not that it will make much difference.

It's not hard. Require an ATP for 121. The end. No loopholes, exceptions, or bribes.

I agree.

I'm a little tired of the "Yay! if we bend over, we'll get a seat at the big boys table!" attitude as of late.

 

[granlistillo]

FE seat. Very big difference. And the right seat of a 3 person crew airplane was cake. Not the same. Not even close so don't go there.

Do you think for one nano second that the AMA would allow anything like this to happen to surgeons? hint: no.

And there is a shortage in medicine. And it is there by design of the AMA.

One of the benchmarks of any true profession is the ability to set standards for admission to the profession, including educational requirements. They also require ongoing professional development studies. Furthermore there would exist the ability to sanction members who do not live up to the professional standards of the profession.
And I am referring to professional vocations: Docs, Vets, Lawyers, Architects...

Not all vocations are professions.

Qualifications wouldn't be an issue because the association would set them.

If an airline pilot was a profession, no one could serve unless the association licensed them. Perhaps a 4 year degree, requisite ratings, 1000 hr commercial experience + a certification program ala JAA theoretical... Could that standard or similar be upheld by a professional governing board? The way it is now: the ability to speak English, pass 3 gleim prepped 100 question MC test, 200 hrs flight time (more or LESS) and 3 checkrides are it. And we are to be compared with Drs?????

Flying sick wouldn't be an issue, cause if a pilot showed up hacking, with a runny nose to infect the rest of the crew, he would answer to the association.

Pilot pushing would be gone because the association would set rules based on safety not politics, and have the power to enforce them.

The way it is now, and has been since the earliest days of ALPA, pilots who "work" the system, have severe defects in character and fulfillment of their duties are protected when they should be sanctioned. About the easiest way to get fired is to not pay your alpa dues. That seems to be the only thing they get upset by.

We had a captain reinstated recently, and I have heard more than one militant ALPA member state that he is a total DB, and a disgrace to our "profession".

It is a vocation and one with a fractured union brotherhood with members willing to throw others under the bus. Nothing more. It is not a profession, and anyone saying it is engaging in wishful thinking nothing more.

Do American Airline Pilots have the credibility with the public? No they don't-in large part. Do European pilots, yes they do. (This is just an personal observation on perception)

Just an observation

 

[Trip7]

I can't believe ALPA is supporting this garbage, and I will make these feelings known to my reps, not that it will make much difference.

It's not hard. Require an ATP for 121. The end. No loopholes, exceptions, or bribes.

I agree.

I'm a little tired of the "Yay! if we bend over, we'll get a seat at the big boys table!" attitude as of late.

I disagree. Requiring an ATP would be unnecessary. That will extend the training process to at least 3 years. We have the technology now a days to improve the training process, make it quicker, more efficient, and most importantly, safer. I believe the MPL will do that. Airlines like Cathy, Singapore, Lufthansa, British Airways, KLM are all doing it with great success. Why can't we do the same in the US?

 

[granlistillo]

I disagree. Requiring an ATP would be unnecessary. That will extend the training process to at least 3 years. We have the technology now a days to improve the training process, make it quicker, more efficient, and most importantly, safer. I believe the MPL will do that. Airlines like Cathy, Singapore, Lufthansa, British Airways, KLM are all doing it with great success. Why can't we do the same in the US?

Are these airlines using an ab-initio cadet "scheme" or the MPL? There is a difference.

 

[OldTownPilot]

As far as I know they all have a cadet 'scheme' that they come out with a frozen ATPL. Not a MCPL.

 

[Matt13C]

There's not going to be any shortage. There will be a reduction in the availability of experienced pilots, but it will be filled in one fashion or another, just as it always has been. The last real shortage was in the '60s, and UAL responded by hiring private pilots and training them from the ground up, then tossing them into the right seat of a 707 with 200 hours. When the regionals had a shortage a couple of years ago, they responded by going to schools like ATP and working out "pref hiring agreements" that got them freshly minted pilots with as little as 190 hours.

"Just saying 'no'" will get you nowhere except locked out of the process, leaving the ATA and a bunch of politicians to write the rules without your input. Sound like a good idea? You won't like the results. For example, if ALPA hadn't been involved in the drafting of the Age 65 law, retired pilots could have returned with seniority. ALPA's involvement fixed that very quickly. If you lock yourself out of the process by crossing your arms and screaming "NO," then you'll be accomplishing nothing more than allowing a bunch of incompetent fools and corrupt airline managers to decide the fate of your profession. Smart move.

Will there be a reduction of experienced pilots or a reduction of experienced pilots willing to work for unskilled labor wages and terrible quality of life?

Seems to me that there are many many qualified pilots that leave this industry every year, there are a number of them on this very board. There are also a number of people who begin training, see the reality, then say screw this, its not worth it and either walk away or get their CFI and instruct for fun on the side. Then there are those who were at the airlines, saw their salary slashed and their retirement stolen and decided to find a job flying corporate, fractional, or contract work.

All of those are potential experienced pilot pools to be tapped if there ever was a need for qualified pilots with an ATP or who could quickly acquire an ATP. Let there be a reduction, force the airlines to raise their wages and benefits and watch some of these pilots come back to the table. They will vacate their jobs, lower time pilots will fill them and start building the required time.

Dont give management what they want so they can continue down this destructive path, force them to change their way of thinking. Pilots aren't a dime a dozen, time to raise pay. This route doesnt make us money, drop it. Cant fly 10 routes a day from PHL to MCO, cut it to 7, raise the price and use the bump to pay pilots more.

There are two models of making money, volume, the wal-mart way which is the industry standard today and obviously is not working. Then there is quality, which is possible if every pilot needs an ATP, because fly by night operators will not be able to use 250 pilots to fly their planes.