Multi Crew Pilot Licenses
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
Alinator
New Member
As a former fry chef who worked his way up through the ranks to eventually, with a lot of blood, salt, and tears operating the shake machine at McDonald's, I resent this statement.
You laugh, but when the annual Shamrock shakes come around all hell breaks loose!
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Same thing that happened when 121 ops were hiring guys with less than 200 hours.....they'll have trouble finding people in a lot of cases. Unless pay significantly increases at the 121 level, you'll always have guys to fly the other stuff. Face it, flying freight around might suck, but as of right now it still pays better than being an FO at a regional for the first year. With upgrades occurring at a snails pace, you're much better off financially going the 135 route than being an FO for 5 years at most regionals.
One of my ex-girlfriends just got a job as a nurse on a med chopper out in SMF. They're hiring pilots, and when she told me how much they make, I seriously considered another loan to learn to fly helicopters. Thing is, I'd be competing with guys that actually have EXPERIENCE doing so. Mostly military guys.
Patrick
Well-Known Member
The world in which most of us know it only applies to North America. There is considerably less GA in other parts of the world, so outside of the airlines, and the few corporate type operations, pilots in other parts of the world don't have many other opportunities, and thus really don't care about small freight, piston twins, and what not.
I do see the potential for a shortage of pilots willing and qualified to work in the GA industry in North America in 10 years if this were to happen.
Either way, it is actually humorous in a way (though also a really sad statement) that someone "qualified" (more on that later) to fly a B767 wouldn't be able to fly a 172 solo around the patch.
For the record, I will agree with most here and say that this is a horrible idea. Not only does the training environment not always transfer to the real world, but the sheer lack of experience a MPL pilot would have going into a transport class aircraft is extremely concerning. If he's only expected to be a gear monkey (which is obviously not the end goal), that's one thing, but how is someone with no real experience at making decisions ever going to be able to become a captain (and I mean that in the true sense of the word)?
The issues I see being most pressing have far less to do with aircraft handling, but far more to do with being able to think in the cockpit, make decisions, and handle difficult situations. All of us (in any line of work or life situation) draw upon our experience, looking for similar events that we handled in the past and learned from, to solve the current problem. If that "bag of tricks" is empty, you're at a significant disadvantage. You bring your BMW to a BMW specialist, not only because he has the right tools and diagnostic equipment, but because chances are, he has solved the same problem you brought your car to him to fix, and likely several times. He may diagnose the problem in 5 minutes, since he knows these cars well, where the guy across the street who mainly works on Hondas might take all afternoon to figure it out, if at all. Why would we want to put a pilot onto the flight deck of a heavy jet with an empty bag of experience?
I do see the potential for a shortage of pilots willing and qualified to work in the GA industry in North America in 10 years if this were to happen.
Either way, it is actually humorous in a way (though also a really sad statement) that someone "qualified" (more on that later) to fly a B767 wouldn't be able to fly a 172 solo around the patch.
For the record, I will agree with most here and say that this is a horrible idea. Not only does the training environment not always transfer to the real world, but the sheer lack of experience a MPL pilot would have going into a transport class aircraft is extremely concerning. If he's only expected to be a gear monkey (which is obviously not the end goal), that's one thing, but how is someone with no real experience at making decisions ever going to be able to become a captain (and I mean that in the true sense of the word)?
The issues I see being most pressing have far less to do with aircraft handling, but far more to do with being able to think in the cockpit, make decisions, and handle difficult situations. All of us (in any line of work or life situation) draw upon our experience, looking for similar events that we handled in the past and learned from, to solve the current problem. If that "bag of tricks" is empty, you're at a significant disadvantage. You bring your BMW to a BMW specialist, not only because he has the right tools and diagnostic equipment, but because chances are, he has solved the same problem you brought your car to him to fix, and likely several times. He may diagnose the problem in 5 minutes, since he knows these cars well, where the guy across the street who mainly works on Hondas might take all afternoon to figure it out, if at all. Why would we want to put a pilot onto the flight deck of a heavy jet with an empty bag of experience?
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
I plan to spend most my careers doing either 135 or charter ops. I would love to fly for mountain air cargo. Home everynight and decent pay with good job security.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
And where is ALPA? Why isn't the leadership exposing every media outlet to this? With the whole pilot experience debate that's been going on, why hasn't this MCPL issue been forced into the spotlight?
I'm with ppragman on this. I might be investing in an RV for long trips and forgeting 121 travel if this comes to pass. What a crock!
"I'm Dr. Smith and this is Dr. Jones we will be performing your open heart surgery today."
"Is it THAT bad? I need two surgeons?!"
"No, no, no. It's not bad. It's just that we are not allowed to operate by ourselves."
"Uh......."
jdlilfan
Well-Known Member
Because the media cares more about outbursts from Kanye West than American job security. Not trying to turn this towards the lav but the traditional media typically has an agenda...
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
I'm not at an ALPA carrier, so I really have no clearly have no right to ask them to support one side or another.
That being said, I would really, really like to see this not happen, and would *love* to see ALPA come out against it. There's a number of prominent (but not official, of course) ALPA voices on the internets who are vocal supporters of the MPL, which is discouraging.
I actually don't agree at all.
If we sit around waiting for our favorite cable news program or talk show host to "save us", we're good as dead because they won't, and if it did, it wouldn't help.
Forget about "the media" because it shifted from "Public Service" to "Profit Center" and Kanye West, Octomom and Jon & Kate + Mistress + Narcissist Husband + Control Freak/Media Starved Wife absolutely sells, and as shareholders, we want maximum EPS so they'd better cover what will bring our 401(k)'s the highest return.
How do we fight it? I'm not sure. Getting the word out about what's around the bend is a start, but the rest, I have no idea.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I do.
ALPA supports MPL, if certain important restrictions are complied with. From Section 80 of the ALPA Administrative Manual, this portion was ratified by the Executive Board in September of 2008:
N. MULTI-CREW PILOT LICENSE (MPL)
SOURCE – Executive Board September 2008
ALPA supports the Multi-crew Pilot License (MPL) when the training and licensing process
is conducted by an airline, or by a Flight Training Organization (FTO) working directly
with an airline. The program must contain the following five (5) major components:
1. An equivalent level of safety compared to traditional training and licensing
methodologies is maintained or enhanced. This should be accomplished by the
following:
a. The Flight Training Organization (FTO) providing the training is directly linked
to the airline that will employ the successful MPL pilot candidate. Supervision,
control, and feedback on the training program cannot be assured if such a linkage
between the airline and the FTO is not maintained. This is expected in a Safety
Management System (SMS) environment under the concept of an Accountable
Executive.
b. Quantifiable data demonstrate that such pilots are capable of competently
functioning as required flight deck crewmembers in the civil air transportation
environment.
c. Airlines employing MPL certificated pilots provide specialized crew pairing and
ongoing training to these pilots in accordance with industry standard safety risk
management practices.
2. A training program incorporating the following four (4) critical elements is developed
and continuously improved.
a. Utilization of certificated instructors and evaluators who regularly participate in
an approved instructor training program. Such a program must include regular
observation of line operations from the flight deck and quality assurance for their
on-going suitability in training MPL candidates.
b. Initial implem entation includes a minimum of 140 hours of actual aircraft
experience until quantifiable data, collected over an acceptable period of time,
demonstrates that MPL can achieve established proficiency standards with less
actual aircraft experience.
c. Flight simulation training devices appropriate to obtaining the required
proficiency in aeronautical tasks and cognitive skill sets. This includes all skill
sets expected of any airman in actual line operations.
d. Full-motion flight simulation representative of the aircraft the candidate will fly
at the completion of training throughout the basic, intermediate, and advanced
phases of flight training to ensure that a solid foundation of aeronautical abilities
as well as skills specific to that aircraft are acquired.
3. An MPL Advisory Board is created and empowered as a means to define proper
standards and to monitor the implementation process of MPL and provide oversight
and quality assurance of MPL training programs.
a. Any Advisory Board(s) for North America, including the United States or Canada,
should include members from the Regulator(s), ALPA, and airline training and operations representatives. Additional members should include knowledgeable
representatives from flight training, aviation safety, and expert training and
education organizations.
b. The MPL Advisory Board(s) should provide expertise, assessments, and valuable
advice on proposed new MPL programs prior to their approval by Transport
Canada (TC) or the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). This Board should
assist the regulatory authorities in ensuring that the State's MPL, as proposed,
produces at least an equivalent level of safety and professionalism as the current
training and certification programs, and facilitate harmonized implementation of
the MPL with other States.
4. Successfully complete appropriate security and criminal background checks prior to
being accepted into the training program to ensure the candidate does not pose an
aviation security risk, regardless of their progress in the program.
5. Successfully demonstrate the ability to speak, read, and write in the English language
to the existing State standard, but not less than the ICAO Level 4 proficiency. This
must be completed prior to commencing the MPL course; not achieved concurrently or
as part of it.
I guess I should elucidate a little.
Whether an albatross like this pops up, our altruistic nature as a union of letting the "camel get his nose under the tent" as long as we can have a seat at the table with the big boys in the sharp, bespoken suits always comes back to bite us in the ass.
Alter ego carriers
Pay for training
International cargo cabotage laws
I'd like to see a symposium on learning how to say "no" for once rather than "Uhh, sure, but under these circumstances and we won't blink!"
Whether an albatross like this pops up, our altruistic nature as a union of letting the "camel get his nose under the tent" as long as we can have a seat at the table with the big boys in the sharp, bespoken suits always comes back to bite us in the ass.
Alter ego carriers
Pay for training
International cargo cabotage laws
I'd like to see a symposium on learning how to say "no" for once rather than "Uhh, sure, but under these circumstances and we won't blink!"
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
My question would be this. If, the MCPL starts gaining steam, and gets approved, will airlines still hire pilot's who didn't take the MCPL route? Or, do those of us who have recently got ratings and training, but not a job, get screwed into having to pay for training, essentially twice?
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Don't european airlines the likes of KLM and BA utilize the MCPL method of training. And isn't far more strict in nature with multiple psychological and aptitude test in place?
Versus our system of training here in the states which is totally credit based in nature in terms of financing. A poorly skilled pilot with a high FICO score is good to go!!!
And, if you fail a stage check, it just means that you need to borrom more money, verses seriously consider other career opportunities!
The forces that are shaping this are ATA, AIRCON, IATA, ICAO, Boeing, Airbus, and to a lesser extent some pilot union input. At the end of the day what you will essentially have is a MPL training program that starts with a guy off the street and finishes with the airline specific qual course. Paid for, of course, by the trainee with the airline claiming a cost share, which for the most part will be imaginary. There will probably be some type of bridge program for someone with flying time, and yes, expect to pay again.
Quite amazing one camp recognizes the need for EXPERIENCE (ATP mins for 121) in addition to training while another is determined ZERO is enough and can be fully replaced by a shiny new shrink wrapped training course sitting on the shelf ready to go.
It's all about the money folks. There is no pilot shortage, there will be no pilot shortage, and MPL is designed to make sure one never materializes.
A shortage for the purpose of our discussion is a lack of qualified workers such that wages are driven up faster than the rate of inflation.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
Perfect example.
Once the air carriers are given the MCPL option with an initial nod to the ALPA criteria, they will be able to negotiate away some of those precious terms. Before you know it, there will be MCPL "pilots" coming out of Gulfstream mills and ZERO constraints.
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Great. Just what I wanted to hear. I guess somebody always gets screwed. Maybe its time to get that CFI out of the way, and get some serious time down.