deadstick
Well-Known Member
I just saw this picture and thought it is funny considering this discussion.
NOTE: This is NOT a dig at the current namesake.
NOTE: This is NOT a dig at the current namesake.
Multi Crew Pilot Licenses
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
I've asked this question before but still not really satisifed with the answer. What does a 135 op do if the mcl is passed. No one is going to pay for a program that trains them to fly a carvan when they can pay for a course to fly a 767?
averyrm
Well-Known Member
I'd imagine a lot of people want to get paid to learn to fly something so it won't be that big of an issue.
I could pay for a 767 type right now, but instead I went ahead and let my employer pay me to get a LRJET type.
I think the biggest reason the MCPL is a terrible idea, is that it will be handled little different than current 141 programs. No personality profile, no psych evals, and a train-to-pass mentality - especially if people are paying for the program. Coupled with the fact that the candidates will have little to no real world experience and this will be the exact same as last years crop of 200 hour FO's.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Add to the list age 65.
When I was still active doing committee work last year I asked a few of the head honchos why the Union had endorsed the MPL. The Head Mustache pretty much fumbled the answer and went with the party line about a potential pilot shortage (really? a pilot shortage? I haven't heard THAT before.). A secondary Mustache had a bit better of an answer that touched on the fact that airlines right now can't control the quality of applicants and have no way of verifying the training history. With an MPL they'd be doing all the training so they could at least confirm the applicants skills. Of course what he didn't mention is if the airlines didn't just do two weeks of systems and then 7 sim sessions plus a checkride they might actually be able to verify those skillsets anyways.
BS answers, but as you said Dough, it buys them a seat at the big boy table.
C150J
Well-Known Member
I can't believe he mentioned a pilot shortage... a legitimate one would be a GOOD thing. Unreal. Completely agree with the rest of your post.
This is exactly why the commercial pilot profession will NEVER recover. The Mustaches spend all of their time, energy, resources, trying to solve the industry problems and ZERO on defending wages of the career pilot. A shortage is the goal of the AMA. They know scarcity drives up pay and attracts top talent to medicine. This is something the Mustaches have never figured out. Many of their efforts have a direct unintended consequence of lowering pilot pay. Trying to solve a pilot shortage "problem" is one of them.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
You're nuts. If this passes, ALPA will be cutting your own throat. For all the talk about raising the bar (re: pay, QOL, work rules, ect) in one act MCPL will lower it permantley. I hope you guys liked the insanity we saw at the regionals over the past few years, because it would become standard EVERYWHERE. Clogan 3407 will only be the first of many.
The only good thing will be that "real pilots" who can fly by themselves will become more rare, and therefore be able to demand more pay. Already Caravan pilots can get paid more than RJ captians. In the future I might make more than a 777 capt.
ATN, you've said you now see the error of your ways going to Gulfstream, yet you advocate a system that would make that the standard route to the cockpit of an airline. I don't get it.
C150J
Well-Known Member
Just as a side note... from what I've seen with UAVs, they require just as much human involvement as manned platforms. Even a MCPL for UAVs would generate a sub-par operator.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
B767
Well-Known Member
I can see it now...
The fight today is for more hours/experience. Senior legacy pilots stating that "back in the day" you had to have 2500TT 500ME to apply to a regional.
Years from now, regional pilots will be stating "back in the day" we actually had to fly SOLO to get a certificate...
MCPL is a damn stupid idea
"The Mustaches" are all about governance, governance, governance.
What good is governance when you've got to sign confidentiality agreements about the data (which invariably most of the financial rags publish), when every single EF&A statement is going to say:
a. Can't afford the pay restoration we're asking for.
b. Weeeeeeee's gonna go bankrupt if we don't sign this contract.
c. Mamma (insert airline here) needs our help, contractual relief or we'll lose flying.
and like our pilot director on the board has always seen, whether they'll admit it or not:
d. Whenever the board wants you out to speak amongst themselves about big boy stuff, they give you the boot from the room.
I'm a dues-paying, get onboard the ALPA bus, never caught without my wings with the battlestar as the next guy, but "The Mustaches" better start listening to the membership on large, industry-rocking issues like MCPL.
What good is governance when you've got to sign confidentiality agreements about the data (which invariably most of the financial rags publish), when every single EF&A statement is going to say:
a. Can't afford the pay restoration we're asking for.
b. Weeeeeeee's gonna go bankrupt if we don't sign this contract.
c. Mamma (insert airline here) needs our help, contractual relief or we'll lose flying.
and like our pilot director on the board has always seen, whether they'll admit it or not:
d. Whenever the board wants you out to speak amongst themselves about big boy stuff, they give you the boot from the room.
I'm a dues-paying, get onboard the ALPA bus, never caught without my wings with the battlestar as the next guy, but "The Mustaches" better start listening to the membership on large, industry-rocking issues like MCPL.
3enginejock
Well-Known Member
Yea I dont know about this MCPL...
Can you imagine the first time the FO on a jet flies solo is when the captain is incapacitated... I wouldnt want to be a passanger on that flight.
Can you imagine the first time the FO on a jet flies solo is when the captain is incapacitated... I wouldnt want to be a passanger on that flight.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
ALPA's Admin Manual is quite clear that no ALPA contract can be negotiated to include PFT, so you won't see that element in any MPL program at an ALPA carrier. Also, if you look at the ALPA MPL Policy, it's very strict and doesn't allow anything like what the pilots on this thread are envisioning. ALPA does not support a wide open MPL program without controls. ALPA's policy on MPL would provide something that we haven't seen since the '60s at UAL: pilots trained from the ground up by the major airline at which they are going to spend their entire careers. I think it's a good idea, if we can steer MPL in that direction. If you cross your arms and scream at the top of your lungs that MPL is evil, and you refuse to even discuss it, then it will end up being something far worse than you could ever imagine, and you still won't be able to stop it. A little common sense and political sense go a long way.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Doesn't this take all the bargaining power away from the pilot? Why pay someone decent money to fly and airplane when you can take Joe Smoe off the street and pay him McDonald's wages.
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Stupid Question
Say in an alternate universe the airlines did like UAL in the 60s and trained people from scratch, Would there be a training contract? Beacuse if you broke that contract and had to pay would'nt that be like PFT?
I'm not downing this idea, In fact as someone coming up I would love to see something like this in the US but I also know how some companies like to abuse programs like this and I would definatly ALPA work out some protection for everybody involved.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I agree with PCL. From what I'm hearing MPL may help the profession. If it wasn't for Age 65 the progress on MPL would have been in a more advanced stage by now. I hear the airlines will train candidates from scratch, and training will be paid for by the airline. Of course a training contract will be implemented.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
Money.
Where is the money to staff and equip a school like to churn out MCPL? Are they paid during training? With all the penny-pinching going on, I don't see that much "black" to start something like an in-house MCPL school.
If Delta starts this, and have hiring, are they going to fill a seat with a MCPL or an regional pilot with 7000 hrs? How are MCPLs integrated? Are all the 7000 hr ATPs SOL when they want to (can) move to a legacy?
Where is the money to staff and equip a school like to churn out MCPL? Are they paid during training? With all the penny-pinching going on, I don't see that much "black" to start something like an in-house MCPL school.
If Delta starts this, and have hiring, are they going to fill a seat with a MCPL or an regional pilot with 7000 hrs? How are MCPLs integrated? Are all the 7000 hr ATPs SOL when they want to (can) move to a legacy?