Multi Crew Pilot Licenses

[granlistillo]

Explain how....

I'm just curious as to the reasoning.

Well, as far as energy management goes the only thing in a CRJ you got is spoilers. I think he was getting at the room for error in a jet at faster speeds without the two spinning disc brakes.


Then again, you didn't ask me and I may be off base.

 

[surreal1221]

Visual approaches in CRJs are very different then in your King Airs or other light twins.

Explain how....

I'm just curious as to the reasoning.

Careful Marcus. . .

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Visual approaches in CRJs are very different then in your King Airs or other light twins.

Explain how....

I'm just curious as to the reasoning.

No they aren't.... especially if you're flying the "stretch RJ" as the CRJ-700 and -900 are colloquially known here in ATL.... you pull that power out and you're in the same world o "sheisse" that you are in a light twin with the power out (speaking from PA-44 experience).... the airplane wants to quit flying.

Visual approaches are the same in all airplanes.... energy management may be different, the sight picture may be slightly different, but all it is is maintaining the PAPI, the VASI, or to go real old school, just aiming for the aiming point....

This is of course, IMHO...

 

[Bwatz]

Visual approaches are the same in all airplanes.... energy management may be different, the sight picture may be slightly different, but all it is is maintaining the PAPI, the VASI, or to go real old school, just aiming for the aiming point....

This is of course, IMHO...

Well said...

 

[jynxyjoe]

Visual approaches in CRJs are very different then in your King Airs or other light twins.

Just help us out here with this comment above. How much time do you have in light twins, in King Airs or 1900's and the CRJ.

 

[wrxpilot]

Visual approaches in CRJs are very different then in your King Airs or other light twins.

Really? Because it's not any different in:

A 172, Piper Chieftain, King air 90/200, or a citation CJ3 (without cheating and using spoilers). It's all about energy management, which is the same concept in every airplane I've ever flown, regardless of them being a piston, turboprop, or jet. I'm also curious how much turbo prop and cabin class twin time you have...

 

[deadstick]

The problem is that no two check rides are the same. I have flown w/ many a pilots that have busted a couple check rides and would have no problem flying w/ them up front. I have flown w/ pilots however without a single bust wondering how I'm not taking the dirt nap while they are behind the controls.

I agree.

They need to spend more money in the sim's letting FO's and Capt's see more types of situations and develop more scenario's after they have 1,500 of 91/135 flying.

Gee...if only there were such a program...

This mess could go on forever. Why dont we get a sim somewhere, have a M&G and settle this the old fashion way...

Dance off?

 

[Roger, Roger]

Dance off?

[YT]2W1eb7ekpkg[/YT]
It's on!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If somebody has 1500 hrs of CFI time and cannot perform a visual approach and decent crosswind landing, they've been doing something very, very wrong.

I agree with Marcus:

Visual approaches in CRJs are very different then in your King Airs or other light twins.

I came from flying BE-1900s prior to the CRJ, but I was asses and elbows during IOE on the visual approaches. Getting cleared to land abeam TDZ at 12,000 ft on downwind in MIA was easy in the 1900, because you just chop the power and the props become the biggest speed brakes you could ever hope for. The airplane practically drops straight out of the sky. A CRJ doesn't quite do the same thing. Something really slick like a 737NG is even worse. Until you get used to the energy management, you're asses and elbows. Most new RJ guys struggle for their first 2-300 hours before finally getting the hang of it.

 

[minitour]

(without cheating and using spoilers).

How is it "cheating"?

-mini

 

[wrxpilot]

How is it "cheating"?

-mini

Hmm... Maybe that's not the right word for it. But I strive to avoid the spoilers on the CJ for these reasons:

1)I don't think they're necessary on that airplane with proper planning.

2)Above 140 kias, they create airframe buffeting that is uncomfortable to the pax.

They are of course a tool on the airplane that has its purpose, but for the most part I feel it is a tool to extricate myself out of a mistake I made due to improper planning.

 

[minitour]

1)I don't think they're necessary on that airplane with proper planning.

Depends on what you planned. If I was planning a 250 knot downwind at 5000' and then get told to turn the base inside 2 miles and "cleared for the visual/cleared to land", I'm probably going to need them.

If I planned on turning final at ref+10 5 outside the marker with everything hanging out, I can pretty much set the power at 55% and just drive straight ahead and be done with it.

2)Above 140 kias, they create airframe buffeting that is uncomfortable to the pax.

So is a 20 degree pitch angle climbing at V2.

-mini

 

[jynxyjoe]

Hmm... Maybe that's not the right word for it. But I strive to avoid the spoilers on the CJ for these reasons:

1)I don't think they're necessary on that airplane with proper planning.

2)Above 140 kias, they create airframe buffeting that is uncomfortable to the pax.

They are of course a tool on the airplane that has its purpose, but for the most part I feel it is a tool to extricate myself out of a mistake I made due to improper planning.

LOL. :rotfl::rotfl:

I haven't seen a passenger yet that feels comfortable with the props surging up at high speeds. That's how you are getting down in the Tprop from 11k.

Most new RJ guys struggle for their first 2-300 hours before finally getting the hang of it.

Most guys you saw and talked to struggled? For 200-300 hours on top of that?! That's a pretty strong word and a very long time. I guess I'll find out for myself in a month or two.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I agree with Marcus:



I came from flying BE-1900s prior to the CRJ, but I was asses and elbows during IOE on the visual approaches. Getting cleared to land abeam TDZ at 12,000 ft on downwind in MIA was easy in the 1900, because you just chop the power and the props become the biggest speed brakes you could ever hope for. The airplane practically drops straight out of the sky. A CRJ doesn't quite do the same thing. Something really slick like a 737NG is even worse. Until you get used to the energy management, you're asses and elbows. Most new RJ guys struggle for their first 2-300 hours before finally getting the hang of it.

No no no you experienced guys have it alllllll wrong. The EASIEST way to get down quick in the CRJ is to put the boards out, throttles to idle, gear down, flaps 45 (whatever order ya want), and forward slip that puppy on down..... hoooooooweeee it gets down quick but it'll hold 128 KIAS on the button!

*disclaimer, don't try this at home kids, I don't want to be responsible for picking your RJ bacon bits out of the ground...

 

[wrxpilot]

Depends on what you planned. If I was planning a 250 knot downwind at 5000' and then get told to turn the base inside 2 miles and "cleared for the visual/cleared to land", I'm probably going to need them.

True, but typically by the time I'm on downwind on that plane I make it a goal to slow it down to 200, and then I can start throwing out gear/flaps and make it all happen. Seems to work fine... But if for some operational reason ATC was requesting your above scenario, that would certainly be a situation requiring spoilers. I've found the need for them to be extremely rare however.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

LOL. :rotfl::rotfl:

I haven't seen a passenger yet that feels comfortable with the props surging up at high speeds. That's how you are getting down in the Tprop from 11k.



Most guys you saw and talked to struggled? For 200-300 hours on top of that?! That's a pretty strong word and a very long time. I guess I'll find out for myself in a month or two.

Well struggle is pretty accurate, actually.... when you've got guys fresh in a jet that fly 15 hours a month and the Captains always take the outstation leg (ie the place you'd do a visual approach), you're never going to learn.

I did my first non-precision about 8 or 9 months into the job. All visual approaches are backed up by ILS when possible..... so, really, we've got backup for our slip ups....

 

[jynxyjoe]

Well struggle is pretty accurate, actually.... when you've got guys fresh in a jet that fly 15 hours a month and the Captains always take the outstation leg (ie the place you'd do a visual approach), you're never going to learn.

I did my first non-precision about 8 or 9 months into the job. All visual approaches are backed up by ILS when possible..... so, really, we've got backup for our slip ups....

When you put it like that I guess it makes sense. If you are only flying for 15hours a month and only doing the hub legs you are going to be boned.

 

[wrxpilot]

LOL. :rotfl::rotfl:

I haven't seen a passenger yet that feels comfortable with the props surging up at high speeds. That's how you are getting down in the Tprop from 11k.

The way you fly corporate is a little different... We strive to be very smooth and not make the passengers uncomfortable unless it is absolutely necessary. It was something that took a little bit of adjustment for me since I came over from 135 (and I thought I was smooth, but wasn't). Again, I've found it to be very rare that spoilers are required in our plane. Something that is heavier, well that's a different story.

 

[minitour]

True, but typically by the time I'm on downwind on that plane I make it a goal to slow it down to 200,

Wuss. :insane::yup:

But if for some operational reason ATC was requesting your above scenario, that would certainly be a situation requiring spoilers. I've found the need for them to be extremely rare however.

Agreed. But in those situations, I don't consider it "cheating". Like ya said, probably a better word for it. It's all Gouda.:beer:

...there are some people that absolutely refuse to use them, however. I used to get in trouble for using them (on empty legs, no less)...but I've since been cut free, which is nice.

-mini

 

[jynxyjoe]

The way you fly corporate is a little different... We strive to be very smooth and not make the passengers uncomfortable unless it is absolutely necessary. It was something that took a little bit of adjustment for me since I came over from 135 (and I thought I was smooth, but wasn't). Again, I've found it to be very rare that spoilers are required in our plane. Something that is heavier, well that's a different story.

Are you on the CJ3 like your profile says? Honestly I don't know crap about the plane I'm going into and I don't know crap about the CJ3. I've seen them use spoilers on the -900 but I'm just along for the ride. As long as we aren't upside down, surging the props, or screwing around with the power I don't pay it any attention. I'm definitely not corporate, just another airline smuck.