Midwest: Nation's First "Virtual Airline"

[surreal1221]

You're smarter than that.

None of what I said compared my company to yours.

But hey man, if you're only going to response with two sentences I suppose there isn't much for me to even debate.

As once again my statements were directed towards another member's post, which you somehow inferred meant something else. You either didn't understand what I wrote in a response to you, or you're looking for something else. Not too sure I can really help you in your search since I'm not in a position to compare crap regionals to each other.

 

[Trip7]

Somewhat related.

The top 1% of income earners in this country back in 1984 earned 9% of the nation's income. In 2004 the top 1% earned 20% of the nation's income.

It's important to recognize that the other 99% of this country have seen their purchasing power decreasing for quite some time now, yet we've been mesmerized by this notion of "capitalism" (the notion spread by the 1%) that we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot.

The system is fine. Its the people chasing the American Dream (aka Debt) that have nothing but themselves to blame. If you live within your means, save at least some of your income, and invest in real assets, no reason anyone shouldn't be able to join the top 1% How many people have car payments? Thats money down the drain on a depreciating asset that could be invested. But peeps gotta keep up with the rat race yo.....

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The system is fine. Its the people chasing the American Dream (aka Debt) that have nothing but themselves to blame. If you live within your means, save at least some of your income, and invest in real assets, no reason anyone shouldn't be able to join the top 1% How many people have car payments? Thats money down the drain on a depreciating asset that could be invested. But peeps gotta keep up with the rat race yo.....

Knowing Surreal, I don't think he would ever tell someone to live above their means. I believe his point is that everyone's "means," except those in the top 1%, are shrinking. An air line pilot shouldn't have to worry about not having a car payment. A car payment on a BMW should be a drop in the bucket compared to his monthly earnings. Sadly, our earnings have continued to fall over and over again, and you amazingly seem to be ok with that. Honestly, I love ya Marcus, but I don't understand your perspective at all.

 

[ladder360]

In the 30's mail pilots were paid the equivalent of $1,000,000 a year to deliver mail.

What were the femail pilots making?

 

[ladder360]

Most importantly, some of us have career benchmarks that we can evaluate. Thus leading to prudent career expectations. That said, if I'm still flying an RJ around for a regional in 13 years I won't be continuing within the aviation industry. So, you see, I'm not like everyone who wants to keep flying for 40+ years in their regional jet.

Here's my question. What should be wrong with making a career out of flying an RJ? What if pay rates were elevated to make it equal to flying a mainline heavy? All I'm saying is, if regional pay rates are elevated to something on par with mainline pay rates, wouldn't it actually change the landscape of things significantly?

I'm not a professional pilot (yet), but I've spent many years in corporate development and one thing that I've heard more times than I can count (and burns my arse everytime) is "because that's the way it's always been done". Just because it's "always been done that way", doesn't me it always should STAY that way.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

An RJ job simply can't pay as much as a mainline job. It's a question of revenue. You simply aren't producing enough revenue on that RJ to justify those kinds of wages. A 747 Captain can demand $225/hr because he's flying around 300 passengers and producing premium revenue with a first class and business class product offering. RJs fly 35-86 passengers and usually don't have a business class product.

 

[MikeD]

An RJ job simply can't pay as much as a mainline job. It's a question of revenue. You simply aren't producing enough revenue on that RJ to justify those kinds of wages. A 747 Captain can demand $225/hr because he's flying around 300 passengers and producing premium revenue with a first class and business class product offering. RJs fly 35-86 passengers and usually don't have a business class product.

I think he may have meant "in proportion to" a mainline job, as opposed to "as much as" a mainline job; and for the reasons stated above. Ie- something below mainline pay, but above what they're making now. At least that's the first impression I got of what he wrote......of course, I could've read the whole thing wrong too

 

[ladder360]

An RJ job simply can't pay as much as a mainline job. It's a question of revenue. You simply aren't producing enough revenue on that RJ to justify those kinds of wages. A 747 Captain can demand $225/hr because he's flying around 300 passengers and producing premium revenue with a first class and business class product offering. RJs fly 35-86 passengers and usually don't have a business class product.

Absolutely! That's easy math. My point is, if RJ pilots mandated that they DO get paid competitively with mainline pilots, wouldn't that cause a shift in the way that all airline operations are conducted? In other words, it could certainly curtail the drift toward (to use the thread title) "Virtual Airlines"? Also, an argument could be made that it would force ticket prices up to a sustainable level. All I'm saying is that it's possible that a paradigm shift could create a more stable business model for the airline industry. They aren't likely to think up what that paradigm shift is, so perhaps the pilot groups could help that along a little. Just my thoughts from a business perspective.

 

[surreal1221]

Here's my question. What should be wrong with making a career out of flying an RJ? What if pay rates were elevated to make it equal to flying a mainline heavy? All I'm saying is, if regional pay rates are elevated to something on par with mainline pay rates, wouldn't it actually change the landscape of things significantly?

I'm not a professional pilot (yet), but I've spent many years in corporate development and one thing that I've heard more times than I can count (and burns my arse everytime) is "because that's the way it's always been done". Just because it's "always been done that way", doesn't me it always should STAY that way.

You've asked a great question.

I can only answer for myself. I'm young, but not that young. I have a family, and life prospects I'd like to be able to entertain. A lifetime as a career RJ Captain will not satisfy me professionally nor financially.

That said, I'm not suggesting groups in the regional industry demand mainline wages. They need to demand livable wages.

Now, some people may be perfectly content flying for a regional for 40+ years - I'm just not one of them, and I'd greatly appreciate it if those who made it out of the regionals to a major didn't decide to pull the ladder up with them. I don't expect a mainline job, I just am planning on at least having the opportunity when the time comes. Now, I also know that there are some within our profession who have a certain advantage in getting hired when the time comes due to numerous factors.

Nevertheless, I am only hoping that mainline pilot groups are able to protect whatever flying they have from further outsourcing, otherwise in 13 years when I haven't left my $89 or $84 an hour CRJ Captain slot I'll be happy to throw the towel in since I haven't met the professional benchmarks my wife and I established when we made this career change. Some don't have any goals or expectations or benchmarks to evaluate themselves. Which might be part of the reason some are just happy to stick it out because they didn't realize how much money they're washing away over that 40 year period by sticking it out at a regional. Money certainly isn't everything, but if you have the ability to make more - why not?

Some guys, a lot actually, are just happy to spend their time flying their tiny jet. Great I say, but don't allow your happiness to negatively impact the career progressions of the larger portion of the profession.

 

[ladder360]

I think he may have meant "in proportion to" a mainline job, as opposed to "as much as" a mainline job; and for the reasons stated above. Ie- something below mainline pay, but above what they're making now. At least that's the first impression I got of what he wrote......of course, I could've read the whole thing wrong too

Sort of. Higher pay for bigger equipment is the way it's "always been done". And there are certainly strong arguments -like ATN's - to be made for why. But an argument could also be made that regardless of how many passengers a Captain is flying, he's still fundamentally doing the same job as the Captain flying 50 passengers - after all, he wasn't directly responsible for the 300 passengers actually booking their reservations - therefore, the revenue derived from the equipment size isn't to his direct merit.

I'm certainly not going to stand up and preach that this IS the revolutionary change that needs to be made for the betterment of the industry. I'm just trying to point out that new and fresh ideas are required for long term improvement. Particularly because airline management is so used to "the way it is" that it's much easier for them to anticipate and bastardize the rules.

It's a little sad to me, from an outsider's perspective, that a guy like Surreal seems to feel as if being a career RJ captain is not honorable. And before the flames start - that's not meaning Surreal is a sad case, it means it's a sad statement for the industry. That needs to change.

 

[surreal1221]

Well, to me it is sad.

It's also equally sad when someone stays in their entry level position for 40 years, no matter what industry.

But, it's an individual choice. If that McDonald's janitor wants to be a McDonald's janitor and never move over to drive thru, burgers, cashier, then so be it. . .

Did I say the job wasn't honorable? Well, it is a job. A job that provides taxes, and a certain amount of purchasing power for the wage earner and his/her family. The job stimulates the local and national economies with potential to stimulate the global economy. In that sense the job certainly is honorable.

 

[Gonzo]

Josh the thing is every entry level job is not the same. Ask a guy at Colgan and my guess is they will take any job that is a step up and there are a lot, but ask a CA at Eagle and there are only 7-8 121 job better then what they have in QOL and pay. So why is it sad that people want the best job they can get?

 

[ladder360]

That's certainly understandable Josh. That's the reason I've always thought being a teacher would quite possible be the worst job in the world. Underpaid, no real advancement and every year the students get more needy and disrespectful.

I set out in my early 20's with the idea that I'd continue to work my way up the ladder in the corporate environment. I was fairly successful in that endeavor. Many challenges, financial rewards and lot's of recognition were the upside of many sleepless nights, dealing with overly ambitious pinheads trying to prove themselves and constantly shifting responsibilities and goals. I realized though, after 15 years and a lot of trials and tribulations, that there is a fair amount of contentment in having a job where you go to work knowing exactly what your task is for the day, how to do it, what's expected and when it is done. It gave me a whole new respect for folks who get into a profession, not because of the advancement opportunities, but because of the love of the profession.

 

[falconvalley]

We just need to get paid a decent wage for it. There's no one formula to fix this or everybody would be chugging it. You also can't pin this on any one person, ideal, or group of people. It's a universal problem that won't be solved overnight. I think good timing and minimal anger will help the issue tremendously.

 

[surreal1221]

Josh the thing is every entry level job is not the same. Ask a guy at Colgan and my guess is they will take any job that is a step up and there are a lot, but ask a CA at Eagle and there are only 7-8 121 job better then what they have in QOL and pay. So why is it sad that people want the best job they can get?

Now, you're mixing the words I stated.

To me, it's sad. To me, I'd be unhappy staying at my entry level job for 40+ years.

A regional is a regional, sure some have better QOL and pay, but we're all entry level sub contracting scum that can disappear any second. Sure, that 17 year Captain at ASA feels pretty comfortable - and while I don't expect us to go *poof* the possibility certainly exists. Now what? He's still entry level labor, passing up the opportunities of the past to stick it out with his McDonald's Janitor gig - never to move to Cashier, Burger guy, fry-maker, Shift Leader, Assistant Manager, and Manager. He gave up, and now he's out of a flying job - and most likely - out of a flying career because he didn't think it'd be wise to move on. At least if he had moved on he would have received at least one more type, another flying experience, increased exposure to different global environments to help him find another flying job. But he didn't, he was still entry level.

It's the equivalent to saying "Ah, I love the nationwide tour, even though I only bring home 60k a year, I'm not going to go play in the PGA Tour." or "I love the minor leagues, I love the pay, crappy travel schedule, easy opponents, I'll stick it out here playing ball." Yeah, and turn your back on the opportunity to nearly double if not triple your life time earnings? Riiiiiiiiight.

In actuality, not enough people want the best job that they can get in our industry by the sheer volume of pilots who end up making a regional a career. For various reasons, they either never achieved that undergraduate degree, never performed any extracurricular activity besides flying the line, never did something to stand out from the rest of the pack, and in essence they quit trying to move up in their career - thus staying at the entry level environment. You don't think that's a little unfortunate, perhaps sad, that people are willing to quit on their career movement?

 

[Trip7]

You've asked a great question.

I can only answer for myself. I'm young, but not that young. I have a family, and life prospects I'd like to be able to entertain. A lifetime as a career RJ Captain will not satisfy me professionally nor financially.

That said, I'm not suggesting groups in the regional industry demand mainline wages. They need to demand livable wages.

Now, some people may be perfectly content flying for a regional for 40+ years - I'm just not one of them, and I'd greatly appreciate it if those who made it out of the regionals to a major didn't decide to pull the ladder up with them. I don't expect a mainline job, I just am planning on at least having the opportunity when the time comes. Now, I also know that there are some within our profession who have a certain advantage in getting hired when the time comes due to numerous factors.

Nevertheless, I am only hoping that mainline pilot groups are able to protect whatever flying they have from further outsourcing, otherwise in 13 years when I haven't left my $89 or $84 an hour CRJ Captain slot I'll be happy to throw the towel in since I haven't met the professional benchmarks my wife and I established when we made this career change. Some don't have any goals or expectations or benchmarks to evaluate themselves. Which might be part of the reason some are just happy to stick it out because they didn't realize how much money they're washing away over that 40 year period by sticking it out at a regional. Money certainly isn't everything, but if you have the ability to make more - why not?

Some guys, a lot actually, are just happy to spend their time flying their tiny jet. Great I say, but don't allow your happiness to negatively impact the career progressions of the larger portion of the profession.

Im not saying don't go for the best job you can, but if you happen to get stuck at the regionals and have to throw in the towel because $84-89 per hr is not enough you really need to rearrange your financial priorities. I know several ASA captains with a net worth of 1 million+

 

[surreal1221]

Or, as I stated, you find a way to achieve your goals. Both financially and professionally.

I'm sure it's easy for some to accept being second fiddle. . .but I'm not that type of person. I'm not going to give up on my professional / financial goals because one of my peers thinks I just need to rearrange my financial priorities.

That said, you'll be happy to know I'm not having any problem meeting my financial obligations unlike some of our peers.

Further, just because you know a couple ASA captains with a net worth of 1 million+ doesn't mean it's okay for someone who doesn't want to spend 40+ years at a regional to simply accept their fate. If those Captains had left the entry-level gig, they might even have a net worth of 2 million+, but nah, they'll stick it out down low.

 

[wheelsup]

I guess I missed the part where an RJ captain was an entry level job.

 

[Kingairer]

Surreal could probably benefit from taking a few days off from the boards.

 

[Trip7]

otherwise in 13 years when I haven't left my $89 or $84 an hour CRJ Caprofessional benchmarks my wife and I established when we made this career change.

So you're telling me if you don't make it to a major in 13 years you're going to thru in towel because basically a 100k RJ capt job isn't enough? Even someone make 40k over 25 years can become rich with smart investing and not spending more than your earn. No mortgages, car payments etc.

Personally I'm aiming for the majors. But if I got stuck at ASA for the rest of my career I would have no worries. The loss of salary one would take by not making it to the majors could EASILY be replaced throw basic investing. A pay cut would have been taken to go to the majors. If you're still an RJ capt take whatever that paycut would have been each year and invest it. Just the theory of compounding interest alone would more than make up for it.

Or take that paycut and invest in some Real Estate. I LOVE flying but I don't know bout you but I plan for flying pay to be one of my smaller streams of income. My eBay business is already rapidly catching up to my RJ pay.