Mid-Air Intercept by ICE

[Qutch]

Yes Nick. But after that.....

Canassis studied and planned his escape......

.
Then...with his business partner.... at night, after the guards were asleep...

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Then he laid low for a while in a cheap hotel

.
Then...with his girl friend....checked out of the place before noon to avoid having to pay for a second day

.
Stopped by ICE to file a claim for the scratches inflicted on his airplane

.
Visited the FAA Office to request a few
minor corrections to his file.

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And then on to Island Paradise.

.

 

[GX]

Greetings from a far away island. I have managed to put two bunny ear antennas together and get an internet connection. Send help!

Not really....

Along w being in flight school, I also breed Arabian horses. And... we're right in the middle of breeding season, so I'm quite busy.

Here's what happened after the phone call to call back "IMMEDIATELY".... I still have the message from one Mr. Woodward who is an agent and pilot. I can give his number to anyone who cares enough to find out why he was flying the way he did. Just saying...

I got patched through to the FAA guy who resides in the ICE office. Yes, really. He said he was conducting an "investigation". I played as nice as possible, but when he started talking about a possible violation or revocation, I pulled out runway incursion, and reckless flying on their part. I name dropped, and told him that I have spent too many years working to get to where I am to let something like this run me over. The FAA rep (Larry Lupton) said he was a former Marine. I said that a little leeway would be appreciated, and if there was anything I could do to further assist them, I'd be happy to. We finished with "If you don't hear back from me in the next 2 days, consider this handled on our end." Nothing further to report on that end.

I have placed 2 calls to AOPA and to Mr. King to talk about mine and his experience. I should be in touch with all of them, maybe by conference call by the end of the week. Part of me wants to just let it go, and get on with my life. Then I deal with the anxiety of getting run over every time I get into an airplane and fly to NM, SoCal, or Texas. I'm finding this issue has taken a lot of energy, both physical, and psychological to try to get on top of. There are so many moving parts that to tackle all of it requires a team of people. So, I'm dealing with it a piece at a time when I have time to do it.

I do appreciate all of the attention that this thread has garnered. My only hope is that we can get to place where we can collectively figure out what all of these moving parts are, how they work together, and what can be done should any of us find ourselves in a situation like mine. I'm sure my experience won't be the last of its kind.

Sorry for the lack of response, just how it goes sometimes.

 

[MikeD]

Greetings from a far away island. I have managed to put two bunny ear antennas together and get an internet connection. Send help!

Not really....

Along w being in flight school, I also breed Arabian horses. And... we're right in the middle of breeding season, so I'm quite busy.

Here's what happened after the phone call to call back "IMMEDIATELY".... I still have the message from one Mr. Woodward who is an agent and pilot. I can give his number to anyone who cares enough to find out why he was flying the way he did. Just saying...

I got patched through to the FAA guy who resides in the ICE office. Yes, really. He said he was conducting an "investigation". I played as nice as possible, but when he started talking about a possible violation or revocation, I pulled out runway incursion, and reckless flying on their part. I name dropped, and told him that I have spent too many years working to get to where I am to let something like this run me over. The FAA rep (Larry Lupton) said he was a former Marine. I said that a little leeway would be appreciated, and if there was anything I could do to further assist them, I'd be happy to. We finished with "If you don't hear back from me in the next 2 days, consider this handled on our end." Nothing further to report on that end.

I have placed 2 calls to AOPA and to Mr. King to talk about mine and his experience. I should be in touch with all of them, maybe by conference call by the end of the week. Part of me wants to just let it go, and get on with my life. Then I deal with the anxiety of getting run over every time I get into an airplane and fly to NM, SoCal, or Texas. I'm finding this issue has taken a lot of energy, both physical, and psychological to try to get on top of. There are so many moving parts that to tackle all of it requires a team of people. So, I'm dealing with it a piece at a time when I have time to do it.

I do appreciate all of the attention that this thread has garnered. My only hope is that we can get to place where we can collectively figure out what all of these moving parts are, how they work together, and what can be done should any of us find ourselves in a situation like mine. I'm sure my experience won't be the last of its kind.

Sorry for the lack of response, just how it goes sometimes.

Runway incursion and reckless flying? How so? They tailed you on a intercept and landed on the same runway you did. Those are both legit.

 

[mshunter]

Runway incursion and reckless flying? How so? They tailed you on a intercept and landed on the same runway you did. Those are both legit.

I wish he could have told him to "violate this!!!" He did nothing wrong, I don't see a violation even possible.

 

[GX]

Runway incursion and reckless flying? How so? They tailed you on a intercept and landed on the same runway you did. Those are both legit.

Well... out of their own mouths... We didn't do an mid-air intercept on you. You just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

1. Runway incursion.
2. Not announcing position in pattern with multiple aircraft in the pattern constitutes reckless in my Government issued book of judgement. It's one of the things I retained when I left the military.

Out of Mr. Lupton's mouth: They didn't do a mid-air intercept on you.
Me: Really? Are you sure?
Him: Yes. They told me you landed at the airport and that they were on the ground when you landed.
Me: Is that right? Who would THEY be? And.... Why did they land on the runway at the same time as me in a King Air 200 if they were on the ground when I landed? In my CTO world, that would be a runway incursion and reckless, would you not agree? And.. I'd like you to know that there were people there picking us up who saw the entire thing. Completely independent of the situation. I have their numbers if you would like to call them.
Him: I said IF they did a mid-air intercept on you.
Me: Would you agree it would be reckless if they were not doing a mid-air intercept?
Him: Well, sure.

I have this one recorded too, in the event you might want to get involved.

Listen Mike, I have a lot of respect for you and what you do, but you need to understand that you work with some cowboys who like to flit around outside of SOP. Trying to cover for them when they were so blatantly out of protocol may not be the best thing to do. They've shown a propensity to lie (we know how it's encouraged, right Mike? ) to people working along side them in their own offices, so why would I expect them to be honest with me? I've come to the conclusion that the reason that I have been looked at by them as a liar and dishonest is because they themselves are liars and dishonest by nature, and so, cannot help but to view others as such.

Sorry for the hostile tone, but this one still frys me. It's part of the reason I've steered clear of this thread. Either build my business, and focus on that, or get sucked into this mess. I choose A.

 

[Zondaracer]

What reg did he say that you possibly violated? Did I miss something?

 

[MikeD]

Well... out of their own mouths... We didn't do an mid-air intercept on you. You just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

1. Runway incursion.
2. Not announcing position in pattern with multiple aircraft in the pattern constitutes reckless in my Government issued book of judgement. It's one of the things I retained when I left the military.

Out of Mr. Lupton's mouth: They didn't do a mid-air intercept on you.
Me: Really? Are you sure?
Him: Yes. They told me you landed at the airport and that they were on the ground when you landed.
Me: Is that right? Who would THEY be? And.... Why did they land on the runway at the same time as me in a King Air 200 if they were on the ground when I landed? In my CTO world, that would be a runway incursion and reckless, would you not agree? And.. I'd like you to know that there were people there picking us up who saw the entire thing. Completely independent of the situation. I have their numbers if you would like to call them.
Him: I said IF they did a mid-air intercept on you.
Me: Would you agree it would be reckless if they were not doing a mid-air intercept?
Him: Well, sure.

I have this one recorded too, in the event you might want to get involved.

Listen Mike, I have a lot of respect for you and what you do, but you need to understand that you work with some cowboys who like to flit around outside of SOP. Trying to cover for them when they were so blatantly out of protocol may not be the best thing to do. They've shown a propensity to lie (we know how it's encouraged, right Mike? ) to people working along side them in their own offices, so why would I expect them to be honest with me?

Sorry for the hostile tone, but this one still frys me.

So Im still not getting it. If they didn't do an intercept on you, then how did they stumble across you? And why would they have even approached you on the ground then? By "they" on the ground, it could mean other officers. And why is an FAA guy speaking for the LEO aircrew?

Im not covering for anyone, I don't even know the guys. But remember that radio comms aren't required at an uncontrolled field, even if equipped with a radio. And runway incursions happen at controlled fields, not uncontrolled ones. Uncontrolled fields, see and avoid applies.

Just keeping it real.

As always, there is more than one side to every story that needs sorting. Keep that in mind.

 

[GX]

So Im still not getting it. If they didn't do an intercept on you, then how did they stumble across you? And why would they have even approached you on the ground then? By "they" on the ground, it could mean other officers. And why is an FAA guy speaking for the LEO aircrew?

Im not covering for anyone, I don't even know the guys. But remember that radio comms aren't required at an uncontrolled field, even if equipped with a radio.

Just keeping it real.

As always, there is more than one side to every story that needs sorting. Keep that in mind.

Those are questions you would be better equipped to answer than me. I think it could be logically deduced in the conversation that when he said "they" he was talking about the collective. All of them. He didn't know about the King Air on the runway. The surprise was audible in his voice. Why IS an FAA guy 1. Even in an ICE office? and 2. Being debriefed about mission ops? Hmmmmm? Interesting isn't it? Again, you are better equipped to answer these. Honestly, I've put enough out there that IF you wanted to make a phone call to verify any part of my story, you'd know where, who, and why to call.

Ok, so, you mean to tell me that you'd fly your F117/Blackhawk/Kiowa/Little Bird into an uncontrolled field with multiple civil (VHF) aircraft in the pattern and not announce at all? I would question your judgement if that were the case. I think CoC would have a problem with it as well if there were an incident. Just sayin.... You know better, and so do I.

There are two sides to this story, why don't you spend the time finding out the answer to some of these questions? They're your partners. And you may depend on them someday to save your skinny from the real bad guy, and I ain't it. Better hope they play by the rules should something go poorly. Because from what I've heard collectively from you, and others in the know, is that there is something clearly amiss with their SOP. From someone who has no idea what your SOP is, and you can verify that, how would I expose glaring errors in SoP if I'm not familiar with them to begin with?

 

[GX]

What reg did he say that you possibly violated? Did I miss something?

Lateral sep from a cloud. Then it changed to I "flew through a cloud w/o IFR clearance" after a bit on the ground. On the phone call w/ FAA it was lateral sep, with a possibility of flying through a cloud. Another point I brought up (with FAA guy) about them being on the ground when I landed.... How did they see it?

 

[MikeD]

Those are questions you would be better equipped to answer than me. I think it could be logically deduced in the conversation that when he said "they" he was talking about the collective. All of them. He didn't know about the King Air on the runway. The surprise was audible in his voice. Why IS an FAA guy 1. Even in an ICE office? and 2. Being debriefed about mission ops? Hmmmmm? Interesting isn't it? Again, you are better equipped to answer these. Honestly, I've put enough out there that IF you wanted to make a phone call to verify any part of my story, you'd know where, who, and why to call.

I don't know. I don't know what they do with ops there.

Ok, so, you mean to tell me that you'd fly your F117/Blackhawk/Kiowa/Little Bird into an uncontrolled field with multiple civil (VHF) aircraft in the pattern and not announce at all? I would question your judgement if that were the case. I think CoC would have a problem with it as well if there were an incident. Just sayin.... You know better, and so do I.

What Im saying is comms aren't required at uncontrolled fields. Remember, we're not talking about whether we should or shouldnt, we're talking whats legally required here, if one is trying to go down that road. That's all Im saying. Legally, uncontrolled fields are see and avoid and comms aren't required (for all aircraft, even if so equipped). It's how aircraft without radios even installed are able to get away with flying at these fields, even if there are 10 aircraft in the pattern.

There are two sides to this story, why don't you spend the time finding out the answer to some of these questions? They're your partners. And you may depend on them someday to save your skinny from the real bad guy, and I ain't it. Better hope they play by the rules should something go poorly. Because from what I've heard collectively from you, and others in the know, is that there is something clearly amiss with their SOP. From someone who has no idea what your SOP is, and you can verify that, how would I expose glaring errors in SoP if I'm not familiar with them to begin with?

As I've said, I don't know the persons involved, and with it not being my unit even (Im on leave anyway), Im not privy to anything with it. It'd be interesting to know the full story, yes; but my general point does stand regarding dealing with anything in life: there's always three sides to every story.

 

[MikeD]

Lateral sep from a cloud. Then it changed to I "flew through a cloud w/o IFR clearance" after a bit on the ground. On the phone call w/ FAA it was lateral sep, with a possibility of flying through a cloud. Another point I brought up (with FAA guy) about them being on the ground when I landed.... How did they see it?

How did the whole FAA thing come into anything? Is there a threat of you being violated for something?

 

[RDoug]

From my ATC training on law enforcement intercepts (and that is ALL I'm going to say about that training), this guy went by the book in every respect, violated no regulations whatsoever, and complied with all rules pertinent to the situation described.

 

[GX]

How did the whole FAA thing come into anything? Is there a threat of you being violated for something?

Yeah. That was the leverage they are trying to use to source me as CI. It went very roughly like this, but this was the message, "We've already got you for busting lateral sep from the cloud. We're going to have the FAA Rep. (Larry Lupton) call you and get your side of busting the lateral sep from the cloud which we all saw you do, btw. You tell us who is flying drugs out of Scottsdale, and keep your nose clean for a year, and we'll drop it. Deal?" It was roughly like that. That was why I ended up with two business cards.

 

[GX]

From my ATC training on law enforcement intercepts (and that is ALL I'm going to say about that training), this guy went by the book in every respect, violated no regulations whatsoever, and complied with all rules pertinent to the situation described.

Well, that's interesting in that everyone who I've come across here, and otherwise has said that SoP was not followed, and that is where we are having so many issues with this story. Funny how things work out sometimes, isn't it?

I'm also curious to know what training you received on mid-air intercepts, because IIRC there is nothing in the 7110, and the only training we received at a base where they fly the ops out of (KNZY) our training was very limited, and mostly dealing with ATC procedures dealing with their missions, never anything dealing with the way they conduct ops.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

What Im saying is comms aren't required at uncontrolled fields. Remember, we're not talking about whether we should or shouldnt, we're talking whats legally required here, if one is trying to go down that road. That's all Im saying. Legally, uncontrolled fields are see and avoid and comms aren't required (for all aircraft, even if so equipped). It's how aircraft without radios even installed are able to get away with flying at these fields, even if there are 10 aircraft in the pattern..

Exactly, there is no requirements in the FAR or AIM to use a radio at a controlled field. Fun when you are trying to drive a transport category jet into one with Cubs in the pattern with no radios or no one is using the. I've done both. Frustrating yes, safe? probably not. But being LEGAL and SAFE are two seperate items and don't always coincide.

As I've said, I don't know the persons involved, and with it not being my unit even (Im on leave anyway), Im not privy to anything with it. It'd be interesting to know the full story, yes; but my general point does stand regarding dealing with anything in life: there's always three sides to every story.

Exactly....This sounds more and more like a Hollywood script the more in transpires.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Did you or didn't you go near/through a cloud when VFR?

 

[MikeD]

Much of the related info is contained in FAAO 7110.67G, Special Aircraft Operations by Federal, State Law Enforcement, Military Organizations, and Special Activities.

 

[RDoug]

I'm also curious to know what training you received on mid-air intercepts, because IIRC there is nothing in the 7110, and the only training we received at a base where they fly the ops out of (KNZY) our training was very limited, and mostly dealing with ATC procedures dealing with their missions, never anything dealing with the way they conduct ops.

You think the only regulation with which controllers deal is the 7110.65? Okay.

And as I said before, I will not discuss that training.

 

[GX]

You think the only regulation with which controllers deal is the 7110.65? Okay.

And as I said before, I will not discuss that training.

I'm a controller, also. I'm not sure I suggested that the only training or source of info a controller uses comes from the 7110. Can you show me where I made that suggestion?

In reference to the radio calls comment, my point isn't coming from the POV of CAN YOU, it's more from the perspective of SHOULD YOU. That's all.

 

[BillErvin]

Isn't that lying to a law enforcement officer? Unless of course you don't know how fast you were going in which case it's inattentive driving.

The point was, don't be a smart ass. You'll be less likely to raise the hackles of some guy that has already had a bad day. Contrary to popular belief cops are human and can have a bad day