Mid-Air Intercept by ICE

[Itchy]

This sort of thing gets my blood pressure going. I dunno I would have played as nice as you did, but I was not there. Did the dog scratch the paint at all, or any damage at all to leave a lasting reminder of the experience? Treated like a criminal. I would have been fit to be tied.

 

[mshunter]

Obviously non compliance with their demands would have only made things worse for you but if you've been illegally searched I'd lawyer up.

Which will get you a bill for about nothing a lawyer can do.

EDIT: If you haven't, regardless of what you think of them, call the ACLU to determine if this was legal.

This is about as good an option as you have. I would ask to talk to a supervisor and ask why you were even searched even though this is all over with now. At least then you would know why they did what they did. And you would have a reason why it all went down to the ACLU.

But honestly, unless you are planning on making a huge stink about this (as in getting the media involved, and going sfter them for some big money), I would let sleeping dogs lay. It's just not worth it.

 

[dustoff17]

Did they have a warrant? If no, what was their probable cause?

Also, did they read your Miranda rights?

I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY, THIS IN NOT LEGAL ADVISE!!!

The dog "hit" was most likely the PC for the search. You have the right to ask this question and they need to answer. Also, no Miranda required as you were NOT under arrest. Had you asked to leave without answering ANY questions, they would have had to make a decision right then; arrest, release, detain as witness. Otherwise they have to cut you loose.

Can they search your aircraft without warrant when you didn't cross the border at all? I guess it's similar to pulling someone over for a traffic stop. As long as they have reason to believe there may be drugs they can start looking right? Obviously non compliance with their demands would have only made things worse for you but if you've been illegally searched I'd lawyer up. Again, I don't know how the law works on this so maybe they legally can search the aircraft.

Non-compliance is NOT PC for a search (the Supreme Court has already ruled on this one)! There needs to be more. They need to have "reasonable belief" that a crime was, has been, or is about to be committed. Then they have to continue the investigation in order to gain PC. However, here the dog hit WAS the PC.

Next time, they can search the plane as part of the dog hit (without the dog, they have nothing). If they ask to search, the answer can be NO. As far as the questions, tell them to pound sand!!
Just my thoughts.....................

 

[Qutch]

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Can they search your aircraft without warrant when you didn't cross the border at all? I guess it's similar to pulling someone over for a traffic stop. As long as they have reason to believe there may be drugs they can start looking right? Obviously non compliance with their demands would have only made things worse for you.......

4th Amendment Issue.

I don't want to put him on the spot, but I hope MikeD can comment on this. In the mean time, there are a couple of organizations teaching people how to combat this type of thing. One is https://www.checkpointusa.org/. You need to carry a video camera and some nerve.

These guys go out everyday and challenge inland (as in... 40-60 miles inland of the border) warrantless vehicle stops, video the action, then post it to train the public. There is some standard verbiage you need to use. These real life demonstrations are interesting to watch.

"Am I being detained?....... Am I free to go?"


"No I won't put the camera down"


"I don't need your permission to film"


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Disclaimer: This advice is worth what you paid for it.

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[RDoug]

Welcome to the Constitution-shredding War on Drugs.

And don't bother with the FSDO call. Federal Law Enforcement pilots are exempted from just about everything when it comes to an airborne intercept.

 

[granlistillo]

No panels removed, but everything pulled out of every open space and console.

ACLU is almost as bad a word and the eff one.... But if you ever need a junkyard dog, that would be the one.

I don't understand-you feel like service might be in vain if we live in a police state, your rights were trifled with, you were treated like a terrorist and the ACLU is the lowest form of life?
I'm not a huge fan of them, but does the ACLU ever trampled your rights like these guys?They have their place, and I would hate to think where we would be at without them.

 

[gotWXdagain]

This is a troll post, isn't it? It appears oddly familiar....

If you're serious, well, my apologies. I flew via ELP.

Ok. In your OP it seemed like you were emphasizing "direct" alot.

 

[Mark815]

Nothing of this sounds legal. I'm amazed you actually put up with 2 hours of that. I would be on the phone with a lawyer if that was me. I wouldn't have let them search the plane, and I wouldn't have let them separate myself and my gf as I did nothing wrong. They could put the silver bracelets on at that point, but if they're harrasing you with questions, having their dogs scratch up your paint AND they're trying to tear parts of the plane apart, there is nothing legal about that. I'd be on the phone with someone ASAP about this incident, and make sure it doesn't happen again. You were flying domestically in US Airspace, you are (I'm assuming) a US citizen, you have rights.

 

[granlistillo]

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4th Amendment Issue.

I don't want to put him on the spot, but I hope MikeD can comment on this. In the mean time, there are a couple of organizations teaching people how to combat this type of thing. One is https://www.checkpointusa.org/. You need to carry a video camera and some nerve.

These guys go out everyday and challenge inland (as in... 40-60 miles inland of the border) warrantless vehicle stops, video the action, then post it to train the public. There is some standard verbiage you need to use. These real life demonstrations are interesting to watch.

These videos are terrifying to me. I think if i tried it, I'd get my ass whipped or ran in. I think I would just sir US sir. On the other hand my wife is now a US citizen but when she had a green card she was terrified of ICE due to a few bullies that gave her the "treatment", so I am glad there are guys with the cojones to at least put some resistance up.

 

[Qutch]

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4th Amendment - Search and Seizure
(It's hard to know for sure now when someone is being stopped whether the pretext is really drugs, immigration, terrorism or just a fishing expedition. The lines are being blurred.)

Lawyer - Jonathan Turley

"We have a system with Checks and Balances....but they don't work."



(Note: Jonathan Turley is not my favorite or most trusted legal commentator, but I thought this discussion was accurate.)
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[Dan208B]

I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY, THIS IN NOT LEGAL ADVISE!!!

The dog "hit" was most likely the PC for the search. You have the right to ask this question and they need to answer. Also, no Miranda required as you were NOT under arrest. Had you asked to leave without answering ANY questions, they would have had to make a decision right then; arrest, release, detain as witness. Otherwise they have to cut you loose.



Non-compliance is NOT PC for a search (the Supreme Court has already ruled on this one)! There needs to be more. They need to have "reasonable belief" that a crime was, has been, or is about to be committed. Then they have to continue the investigation in order to gain PC. However, here the dog hit WAS the PC.

Next time, they can search the plane as part of the dog hit (without the dog, they have nothing). If they ask to search, the answer can be NO. As far as the questions, tell them to pound sand!!
Just my thoughts.....................

This ^^^^^^^

You're a better citizen than I. I had this happen to me after a domestic flight to pick up my wife. Ran into a friend on the other end who asked if I could give his cousin a ride back as his battery had gone dead in his airplane and he wanted to stay around and fix it. When I got back (didn't come within 50 miles of a border on the flight), there was an ICE agent waiting. He asked why we were out this late and I said to pick up my wife. He asked the girl if she knew me and she said not really but proceeded to explain the situation. He thought this was just insane that she would actually go with me and that I would take her and wanted to ask a lot more questions. Being 2am I said "listen, I know you're just doing your job but I do this kind of thing on a very regular basis and unless you're going to arrest me if I don't talk to you, we're all leaving." He didn't seem to know what to say but eventually said go on, but he would "have to check in with his supervisor to see how legitimate this kind of thing was..."

I wouldn't have let them anywhere near my airplane... You a pilot that I trust? No? Then don't touch it.

 

[MikeD]

Welcome to the Constitution-shredding War on Drugs.

And don't bother with the FSDO call. Federal Law Enforcement pilots are exempted from just about everything when it comes to an airborne intercept.

True about don't bother with the FSDO. FAA doesn't enforce public use aircraft anyway.

Something doesn't add up with this whole thing.

 

[granlistillo]

You know, I lived in Holland during 911 and then back to Spain before coming back to the US in 06. The US is not the US of my youth. The worst thing you can do in the Netherlands is deny someone their rights,they get real worked up about that. Anywhoo, I am a very conservative individual but really am glad Obama is making the judicial appointments for a while. The pendulum has really swung out of control.

 

[NickH]

I'm not sure that it is so much a pendulum as a sinking ship. Obama appointees are less likely to be involved in restoring 4th amendment rights as they are in restricting 1st and 2nd amendment rights. The goals of the current legislature, from NDAA, SOPA to the Fast and Furious conspiracy are not encouraging. At this point, both political parties seem to be intent upon increasing government size and control, and just arguing about the areas and methods used to achieve this.

 

[Murdoughnut]

If I remember correctly I think border searched have been specifically determined to be outside 4th amendmend protection

 

[NickH]

If I remember correctly I think border searched have been specifically determined to be outside 4th amendmend protection

He did not cross a border, and there was no suspicion or reason to believe that he might have. This was a drug search, just the same as the 'border patrol' internal checkpoints.

 

[BeReal]

I think I'd start with a request for the Fed's report under FOIA. As long as the investigation is closed you should be able to get it. If they say there is still an investigation pending, call a lawyer!

The report should give you insight into their reasonable suspicion to intercept you. If it's something bogus like your left wing crossed the center line or there was excessive tinting of your windows, then you mght ask for records of other interceptions by these guys to see if there's a pattern.

This stuff makes my blood boil too. I wouldn't take it lying down.

 

[MikeD]

He did not cross a border, and there was no suspicion or reason to believe that he might have. This was a drug search, just the same as the 'border patrol' internal checkpoints.

Depends what kind of indicators there are.

Still though, the OP post doesn't make sense. ICE doesn't have it's own air units, and a number of the operational things he mentions don't add up.

Happen to get the N-number of the King Air?

 

[Qutch]

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Depends what kind of indicators there are. That's what sets these kind of things in motion.

Still though, the OP post doesn't make sense. ICE doesn't have it's own air units, and none of the operational things he mentions add up.

In my work, I'm often asked how I stumbled on to the smoking gun that everyone else missed.

My answer.... "something didn't add up, so I started peeling back the onion, and that's what led me to it. They were operating outside approved or published procedures, and I wanted to know why."

My point is Canassis, in my experience, what Mike is saying, and BeReal (who I believe also has some indirect experience in these matters), may be a valuable clue. Was this being done outside normal procedures? Mike says something seems amiss in the story. What was on their business cards? Did you get any aircraft tail numbers? What should have been the normal procedure?

From my personal experience, somewhere in unraveling those answers may be the answer you're looking for. No telling what you'll find.
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[Douglas]

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"I don't need your permission to film"


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Disclaimer: This advice is worth what you paid for it.

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Gotta be careful, in some overreaching states (maryland), you will be arrested for filming LE while pulled over. Though they can film you.