Market is dead - huh?

TangoBravo said:
Failure to establish standards is what is coming to get them now. Lack of pride.
Maybe it's part of the American dream, maybe it's caused by the level of ignorance and arrogance our people have come to expect from each other, but I see that just as a normal sign of the times.
Click to expand...
What standards do you have in mind? You seem to insinuate those old bedrock standards reminiscient of a work hard ethic. If so, I could not agree more. Teamwork, commadrie, unity towards a common goal....



It won't matter much what kind of a person you are, it won't matter much if you are the next Bob Hoover, all that matters will be the numbers and how much you paid for College, or for your professionally created resume.
Click to expand...
Yet you say this which leads me to believe you aren't talking of teamwork. To this I would add that I just had a eye to eye conversation with an experienced 135 chief pilot and he was all about teamwork and fitting in to the company...being a good fit. In fact, he went so far to say, "...hours mean nothing. I know plenty of 15,000 hour pilots who don't know which end goes forward and plenty of 500 hour pilots who could outfly them." My current chief has said pretty much the same exact thing.

So what, I ask, am I to make of your statements?
 
So, what could help this industry?

It would be greatful to find the right fit for a company and never have to leave as long there is an upward motion within the company. I believe we have to start taking advise from our european friends starting with the Dutch and how they protect a city from water. Second, split the aviation industry into two sectors. One airline sector and one GA sector. This could kill the time focused pilot and really put him where he wants to "fit" with out hurting other pilots that would really be a good fit for the company the time focused pilot is working for. How to split it starts with the type of training.
 
splash said:
So, what could help this industry?

It would be greatful to find the right fit for a company and never have to leave as long there is an upward motion within the company. I believe we have to start taking advise from our european friends starting with the Dutch and how they protect a city from water. Second, split the aviation industry into two sectors. One airline sector and one GA sector. This could kill the time focused pilot and really put him where he wants to "fit" with out hurting other pilots that would really be a good fit for the company the time focused pilot is working for. How to split it starts with the type of training.
Click to expand...

Huh?
 
RICHARD5 said:
What standards do you have in mind? You seem to insinuate those old bedrock standards reminiscient of a work hard ethic. If so, I could not agree more. Teamwork, commadrie, unity towards a common goal....
Click to expand...

Thank you, I do.

In the past years I have seen FO's who had spend anywhere between 3-6 years being a FE before ever making it to the right seat. From there it was usually not the fastest road to what we know today as $300-400K/ year large body international gig. Well, FE's appeared to become a dying breed, which gave people the opportunity to be on the right seat of that airline cockpit, after having instructed for years, towing banners, or doing whatever else it was that people had to do to get the seat. I personally know of people who could not make it to a carrier before they had accumulated far in excess of 1500 hours, gained their ME ATP and had instructed for years. If you had told a CA riding a widebody left seat (or one of his many FO's riding right seat, knowing full well that they could not upgrade for years, in fact I know several flying for major carriers who will never upgrade) that, one day you would see a 23 year old 400 hour pilot in a 737 right seat, he would have had a cardiac laughing. I personally know people who had gained the incredible right seat in DC10's or MD11's or on a 47-2 with no less than 6-8 years of experience and many thousand hours of exposure. The reward came over time. Look around today. We live in a "instant reward & gratification society" par none. We stuff our children with medicine, creating perfect loosers.
Me... Me... Me... my mortgage, my car, my stupid pregnant girlfriend... it's a hell of a lot of whine, for something that always required, and always will require huge sacrifices if it's done right. It's no longer done right, people on one side whine about it because they see old values swimming away, and others whine about it because they are washed out of the bin.

Am I a Barry Schiff "sobbing the good old days are over crying" kind of guy? By no means, but there are kids in this industry who have never heard of the good old days as they have not spend more than 90 consecutive days in aviation. Increasing cockpit automation has killed the cat, those airplanes are easier to fly, and in fact would do it all by themselfes if there was no need to taxi. Many FO's are "better decoration", merely a disliked regulatory requirement.

Yet you say this which leads me to believe you aren't talking of teamwork. To this I would add that I just had a eye to eye conversation with an experienced 135 chief pilot and he was all about teamwork and fitting in to the company...being a good fit. In fact, he went so far to say, "...hours mean nothing. I know plenty of 15,000 hour pilots who don't know which end goes forward and plenty of 500 hour pilots who could outfly them." My current chief has said pretty much the same exact thing.
So what, I ask, am I to make of your statements?
Click to expand...

If you believe I am making statements because I think that a 500 hour pilot could never outfly a 3.000, 9.000 or 20.000 hour CA you are mistaking me. If we had an eye to eye conversation I could tell you first hand that with my lousy 500 hours I have personally experienced the dangers of complacency. In hard IMC your logbook becomes secondary. All that matters is your skills and your ability to function.

Well, then there is the second experience I have come to reach:

A bunch of years ago, CA's stood up against greenhorn FO's and tried to shut them up by intimidation. The FO was not supposed to say anything else than "Heck of a nice landing Cap" or "Are we on the ground yet?"
They where considered JAFFO's. Bad doo doo!

Systems had to be introduced that stated a coordinated crew, seeing each other at the same value is better than a big boss and kid scenario. In fact if I say "Speed, Go Around, or Abort" in my twin there is not a second of discussion, nobody takes the airplane back, decides otherwise or overrides each other. Never! Problems are discussed on the ground, flights are debriefed, there is never ever a discussion as to who is in charge. 15.000 hours and 500 hours working well together, I'm not looking up, he's not looking down. We look out for ourselves, and each other.

I am talking of nothing else than teamwork. I miss teamwork and looking out for each other by guidance, counseling, and coaching that used to be what people went through to become good teamplayers and good pilots along the way. Nowadays you can find people who know nothing but themselfes. Some of them have lost touch with reality because they are under tremendous pressure, some have done so because they don't give a "stinkin' rats ass" (excuse my french) about any other living thing. There is a lot of whining and bitching, but there isn't much beyond that to change anything. The sim checkrides and perfectly prepared interviews don't tell me much about the person, the kind of teamplayer, or his attitude. The logbook tells me nothing of skill, knowledge or wisdom.
A casual meeting at the mall does a better job at that.

If anything, I would ask this community of pilots to go inside and do a inventory of your reasons to fly and why you do what you do. Why don't you speak up, against Airlines doing all the training to $80K debt holders?
Why don't we move together and discuss options to change this misery, rather than sitting there and discussing if 10K TT is asked too much of a Learjet captain. Why do we have to piss on each other in a forum? To make the other person look stupid? To undermine their integrity or value? To question their patriotism? Look around people, everything we can see around us has gone to the absolute EXTREME. Don't tell me you are flying because of the paycheck! I can top a $50K- $80K paycheck in many other professions, way easier with much less sweat and effort. You could work at Walmart and make 20K per year and be treated better with more benefits than at MESA or any other low cost. There is something else that makes you guys and gals put up with this, and I believe (or am afraid) we are at the edge of loosing exactly that.

I'm done...:rolleyes:
 
splash said:
What is your question? Feel free to ask. If I answer "huh" I would just retype what I just posted. What do you need to know more about this idea?
Click to expand...

<-- thinks "HUH?" in this case stands for an abbreviation of either:

  • what a revolutionary idea, tell me more, or
  • he may think you are a moron for even thinking that this could work but does not want to spare the effort to type that.
How do you recommend splitting the two paths? Like in Europe? Only two options: Ab Initio.... vs. No Airline for you....
Could you explain? I'm on option one from above, so please do tell.
 
My response was "Huh?" too. Building dikes like the Dutch and aviation...Huh?

But also anytime someone starts spouting we need to be more like the Europeans my ears start to burn and there is gnashing of teeth.
 
I hear all that has been said. ALL of it. And the beauty (insert the word "irony" here) is that EVERY personal pilot situation is different. We all know of veterans who worked their way up the system...instructing, crop dusting, mapping, maybe instructing again, then finally getting their gig several years into the process. I admire that. I really do.

And then we hear of the FO's with 280TT and 50 Multi...now flyin' regional jets or King Air's. And I smile at that. I do!

Their demeanor or personalities? We've all seen pilots who think they are the cream of the crop, the best of the best...that everything in the world caters to them and that in fact they don't fly around the world...they only fly up, and the world spins around FOR them.

And then on the other hand, you meet pilots who have unreserved passion. They care not what pay they take, they care not why plane they fly, they only choose to dance with the clouds. They eat, sleep, dream, and talk airplanes. Perhaps it has done some damage to the industry, but to their credit...they love what they do. And they complain not. Oh, that we could all learn from that.

And so, here's the "$27.50 per week" "kid" "amateur" "novice" "unexperienced" "just above a pedestrian" "why waste our forums with your times" pilot signing on. Putting his two cents in (for some, you will only give me credit for one cent, but I'll take it).

I have 343 hours. 90 Multi. I have instructed for 17. I was recently laid off from my flight school because I only flew 32 hours one month (and obviously only half of that was teaching). The boss called me in, told me he didn't have students for me, highly suggested I leave. That was 30 days after being hired. hmm.

Friends, I LOVE flying. I really do. I am the guy that would be happy to fly a 172. And I would be happy to fly a big jet. I would yearn to learn from a Captain. I recognize I have skills, but I recognize I am young and widely inexperienced, too. But I would also love to fly solo in IMC delivering freight. If I fly, I smile. No, don't get me wrong. Jobs are work. Even passion-filled ones. Sure, it may get boring at times. But it may be as exciting as ever, too.

But this is the career I have chosen, and this is the career I will stick out. Now with that said, my resume is probably at 40 different places. Most instructing but also a few other places. So I am TRYING. But as we all know, you need 100% skill and 300% luck. I have called more companies than I care to admit, and I can't even score a mapping or patrol gig under 400 hours. And to think, I'm young...single...willing to relocate...and willing to work for under $30,000. How much more can I prepare myself?

But as for now, I am jobless. I have resumes in all over Florida and Arizona for instructing positions. They seem to offer more than 32 hours a month. But at the moment, I have heard back from no one. And several have told me they are only hiring their own graduates.

But I push through.

So take heart to know that there are some "low-timers" who have a good head on their shoulders. We are young, but we are still lovers of our job, not haters (I pray that never happens). We aren't trying to ruin the industry, and we certainly aren't trying to kill ourselves or others. We are who we are, and we can't change it.

We just eat, sleep, and dream airplanes. Now we just wish that someone would notice...
 
splash said:
What is your question? Feel free to ask. If I answer "huh" I would just retype what I just posted. What do you need to know more about this idea?
Click to expand...

I said "Huh?" because I had absolutely no idea what you were talking about. None whatsoever.
 
stormchaser said:
But as we all know, you need 100% skill and 300% luck. I have called more companies than I care to admit, and I can't even score a mapping or patrol gig under 400 hours. And to think, I'm young...single...willing to relocate...and willing to work for under $30,000. How much more can I prepare myself?
Click to expand...

That can be very true about luck... But you have to do more than send out resumes (and please make sure you had somebody look at it first for mistakes!). Employers get so many resumes that sending it in just won't stand out. Follow up with phone calls. Do you have your CFII? Tell them that you'd like to get your CFII with them and teach afterwards. Most will probably go for that, and the CFII is by far the cheapest and easiest ride if you already have some CFI experience.

One suggestion though - don't suggest your willing to work for under $30k. Let your potential employer make an offer and negotiate from there. Low balling from the start is not a good tactic!
 
Tango B,

No, I don't think you are a moron. It's good to know you are interested and have not herd about this idea and I am very willing to explain more.

Let me get the fist little thought off my chest. To protect a city from flood serges from the Gulf of Mexico we should use updated ideas like the Dutch. Here in New Orleans we have over 300 miles of dirt leeves some 6' high and some 12' high. There is no confident assurance that this 300+ mile pile of dirt will hold back water.

On with aviation... I'd like to believe that many of us know if we want to fly for the liners or not when we start our extensive pilot training. Let me try to sum in up in a nutshell here. Not saying on these exact footsteps but on the same outline as this.

For the airline pilot... standard training through the private and then start crew training from here on out in sims or the real deal jet. Building time as a crew and team problem solving within the cockpit as crew. Why does a future airline pilot need 3000/1000+ hours as single pilot in light pistons? Would you feel assured with a 3000/1000 single pilot sitting right seat or a pilot that has been through crew based training that is flying you from the east to west coast?

For the single/multi engine pilot... standard training as of today (private, instrument, commercial, multi, ect.)

Just think not only what this would do us as pilots but also and more importantly the company we work for or will soon work for. Honestly, I'm also tired of feeling the precussions of the airline layoffs and why should airline pilots have an upper hand in the GA world if they fly as a crew? Not trying to step on toes here but I really feel mine have been steped on by the airlines.
 
splash said:
Tango B,

No, I don't think you are a moron. It's good to know you are interested and have not herd about this idea and I am very willing to explain more.
Click to expand...

I know some do - don't worry. I'm "moronically" all set I guess.
The idea has been brought up a million times.
The effort to separate time builders from other people leaves room to insinuate that the one group loves flying more than the other. That has no merit, is impossible to proof and actually get's one punched out of his flip flops quickly if said.

For years we have seen an increase in applications for flight instructor certificates. Why? Because flight instruction is viewed as "valuable" experience in the airline industry. It beats banner towing, it beats flying the bush, it is a perfect way to learn about human factors, and instills some deep rooted knowledge into those who do it. Yet - flight instruction per se has become more and more of a stepping stone, something it has always been, but back in the old days people actually stood a chance to come to respect CFI'ing as the backbone of all aviation we have. There is a very distinctive reason the FAA has put a gridlock on CFI applicants. This profession has been kicked to the dust by people who did and still do it for THE WRONG REASON! I do not care how ATP trains their applicants. If they did train their applicants to real standards the airlines would have to pay more money, because there would really only be type and SPECOPS related stuff for them to learn, once they get there. I have flown with ATP graduates that could not evenhandedly complete a flight. If they had nobody to turn to to ask, they where done!

Let me get the fist little thought off my chest. To protect a city from flood serges from the Gulf of Mexico we should use updated ideas like the Dutch. Here in New Orleans we have over 300 miles of dirt leeves some 6' high and some 12' high. There is no confident assurance that this 300+ mile pile of dirt will hold back water.
Click to expand...
Okay - whats the point? Have you lived in Norway? Have you seen what happens in Denmark when levees break? Is Norway pounded by Hurricanes?
Do they have half the population density living "that close" to the water? Do their politicians care for more than just the obligatory "meet and greet, I'll get your job back" attitude all our muppets portray? If a natural disaster stroke Denmark tomorrow, there won't be many people with guns looting other people's houses.

On with aviation... I'd like to believe that many of us know if we want to fly for the liners or not when we start our extensive pilot training. Let me try to sum in up in a nutshell here. Not saying on these exact footsteps but on the same outline as this.
Click to expand...
I for one started flying many years ago on a different continent. I never reached for the Airline Pilots career, because I made all my money with other fun stuff. Now I'm 30+ and come to realize a dream. Should I be excluded from it all, because my training was not tailored for an airline career? If anything, people who have been solely trained for multi crew cockpits should be excluded from single pilot operations!

For the airline pilot... standard training through the private and then start crew training from here on out in sims or the real deal jet. Building time as a crew and team problem solving within the cockpit as crew. Why does a future airline pilot need 3000/1000+ hours as single pilot in light pistons? Would you feel assured with a 3000/1000 single pilot sitting right seat or a pilot that has been through crew based training that is flying you from the east to west coast?
Click to expand...
I would feel safer with a 3000/1000 pilot in the right seat, because he has proven for 3000/1000 that he can stay alive doing a very hard job, in sometimes very hard conditions in everything else than ideal airplanes. He - in my opinion deserves the seat. He may not be as bendable as the kiddo, but heck, he sure is the better deal. Unless that person has picked up extremely unfix able bad habits - he is the better pilot, by all counts of which we use to determine pilot quality in this country.

Just think not only what this would do us as pilots but also and more importantly the company we work for or will soon work for. Honestly, I'm also tired of feeling the precussions of the airline layoffs and why should airline pilots have an upper hand in the GA world if they fly as a crew? Not trying to step on toes here but I really feel mine have been steped on by the airlines.
Click to expand...
This market is build on very simple concepts, look around, the FED jobs go to people who get an education, qualify themselves and work their ass off. Some of them get their jobs by buying a resume, buying the college degree and smiling their souls out. Everything we see is a function of basic SQL

IF
[the guy has this and that degree)
THEN
[we will look at him]
ELSE
[No can't do]

GA is affected because it made itself extremely dependent on this recent upswing. Everything crashed in on the nice airlines hiring all these pilots.
While I was in training I was told, right after, I should immediately apply for a job, I was guaranteed employment as a CFII upon getting the tickets. Look now. 7 months ago some silly crook offered me to pay for my CFI if I could promise not to turn out to be a time builder.

The reality is, our "human resource" system has become just that. Nobody looks between the lines of a resume, nobody tries to figure out if that guy/gal is a long hauler or just some gecko out of his mind. I have interviewed more than 2000 people in my life. Some eliminated themselfes from the race, some actually had to offer more than I thought, despite the resume I received. A sneaky looking guy, with a perfect resume can still be the worst load of crap you can load on your trailer. Eventually that load of crap comes full circle and you can't afford to look for "good people" anymore, because you either can't afford to, or you simply give up.

The most favorite word I know is "whatever" and it is mainly used after you tell people that their levees have holes and their system stinks or their motivations are faulty. They revert to "whatever" because they can. It beats looking deeper into the issues at hand. Maybe our older pilots can chime in (I guess that is established by the postcount) and give a rundown on what a simple whatever can do to people?

Here is a question answer game:
Q: What do you need to get a job? A: Experience!
Q: Good, Thanks, how do you get Experience? A:Get a job!
Q: But in order to get a job, you need experience, how do you get experience without a job?
Answer: Oh, kid, whatever, just go out and do it!







​
 
Tango B,

I am going to touch up on some of your views and the rest is "whatever"...lol.

OK... Should I be excluded from it all, because my training was not tailored for an airline career? If anything, people who have been solely trained for multi crew cockpits should be excluded from single pilot operations!

No, no, no, absoloutly not at all. Should you have to go "back to school", YES! There after you then will be more qualified because you also have single pilot operations. "Crew" is the key word training here. The 3000/1000 single pilot does a hard job (lol...and is alive) but can he function as part of a crew just as well as the kiddo that spent 2 years in a sim crew training? Does he have crew flying in rote memeroy still? Does he have experience in crew trouble shooting in this not so familar jet airliner? I have to disagree with you here.

I am 30+ and I have come across many operators that I would like to fly for but will not give me the chance fearing that I'll be here today and gone in 6-12 months flying for the liners ASAP (:banghead:). How can I prove that my ultimite goal is not in crew liner big jumbo jet flying that the industry seems to revolve around but only flying for them for a long time well worth there training efforts? One company I have been checking up with every 6 months for 3 years is looking to hire but not intersted in my age bracket because the younger pilots way back when were in and out the door. I'd sign on them 30+ years and it is not outstanding money they offer. I believe they are looking for someone in their mid 40's like the last guy hired. BTW, I have also been kicked aside by a 1200+ hour guy just after working for a company for 2 months. On a positive note, great to have the small window of chance and 60 more hours logged. Another company I worked for 1 month sold there operation to another company and I was last hired and first to go. On a positive note, same as above. lol...another company... engine failure (no pilot error) and was to cheap to replace a $350 water logged head set (yes, I walked off.). On a positive note, same as above. I can barely fit everything on a one page resume and have low time. Sometimes I look back and ask myself, is it still worth it?
 
splash said:
Tango B,
I am going to touch up on some of your views and the rest is "whatever"...lol....
Click to expand...

Many people can prove that their ultimate goal is not short term, time building employment. Yet - nobody asks them for their reasons for being in this. Sure, some flight schools who have lost thousands of dollars worth of training and a lot of good reputation for hiring jumpy CFI's ask - but essentially they don't care. There is a quick buck to be made, and the cheapest worm is tossed to get the fish. Crew coordination is not exclusive to academy style pilots. If anything, crew coordination and emergency management are anything else but rote level repeating of learned material. Just because someone can repeat this stuff back and make the proper callouts at the right time, still does not say a word about this persons capabilities should something happen.
The airlines fill the cracks. Thats sad for people knowing what they are doing, because the airline has really no operational benefit of hiring "experience". It is also very scary for pilots having to use such airlines for travel. I prefer traveling by car. Sure, with the current market they are looking for higher times, but the fact remains that they are only doing so because they know and count on extremely desperate people taking it, which keeps competitive pay nonexistent. The Corporate world has picked up some nice cheap people as well and it will take a few years before that shark shows his teeth.

Only 3 things I can see for fixing it:
1. Attitude change within the pilot community.
2. Current pilots (old and young) need to put the pressure on
3. The industry needs to get exposed with it's scams and modern kind of slavery. If 50 people loose their jobs at GM the country is sobbing for days, online, in TV and everywhere. Yet, the destroying of thousands of pilot jobs, FA's, and many many ground people goes unnoticed. Our citizens still believe Pilots are the guys jetting around the globe, sitting on huge piles of cash, while having girlfriends all over the globe. The idiot on the street can not distinguish a 21 year old RJ FO from a 62 year old FEDEX CA. No publicity - no stink.
 
TangoBravo said:
Crew coordination is not exclusive to academy style pilots. If anything, crew coordination and emergency management are anything else but rote level repeating of learned material. Just because someone can repeat this stuff back and make the proper callouts at the right time, still does not say a word about this persons capabilities should something happen.
.
Click to expand...

This is what I am trying to explain. Would you rather a fresh single pilot that just had 2 weeks to 1 month training flying you from east to west coast or a fresh graduate just out of an airline training school that took a year or two for him/her to complete?
 
Ok, so had anybody looked at the Market outlook for pilot in the next FIVE years! Trust me I know it's bad right now. With Airnet and everybody getting screwed it's hard to see the silver lining right now but seriously. In five years we are going to be back where we were 6-12 months ago. Trust me I know how long five years is, but if you can hold out and get through in five to seven years we will be hiring pilots with 250TT/50ME again. If you don't believe me go over to www.aero-tv.net and watch some of the videos on pilot shortages. In five years pilots will be such a commodity that the ATC problem will not be nearly as bad I do not believe. But that is just my humble, screwed up opinion. I do not claim to be anybody who understands airlines and their hirings. Stick with it for just a little bit more time and there will be jobs again!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top