Market is dead - huh?

There's still some decent jobs out there, they just aren't going to fall in your lap. The important thing is to keep current. Flight instructing will probably always have a demand, as long as you're willing to move. As you are quickly building time as a CFI, network like crazy. Find out who's flying 135 in your area. Talk to (and keep in touch with) the more experienced CFIs that end up moving on. Follow up on job leads, as most CPs seem really busy and will only respond to the guy/girl that shows a strong interest (and reminds them that they exist!).
 
Boris Badenov said:
Your funeral.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/72576-cargo-plane-down-near-klck.html

I don't think you have any idea what Air T is like. I've flown a lot of old airplanes in bad weather. By all accounts I've heard, Air T is in a whole different ballpark. Scary.
Click to expand...

Wow. The bad part is that I made my post before I even heard about this crash. Well, it certainly isn't surprising, but it's sad. RIP to the crews.

Regarding AT, I heard about their rep when I was still a student pilot. Amazing what some people will do for a flying job.
 
wrxpilot said:
Wow. The bad part is that I made my post before I even heard about this crash. Well, it certainly isn't surprising, but it's sad. RIP to the crews.

Regarding AT, I heard about their rep when I was still a student pilot. Amazing what some people will do for a flying job.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I hadn't heard about it when I made my post either. I consider myself a fairly hell-for-leather freight pilot but you couldn't hitch enough wild horses to me to get me in the cockpit of an Air Tahoma bird. Read the posts on "those other sites" on the Rude brothers. Reads like an f'ing demon's resume.

Forget about "lowering the bar", you're talking about "saving your skin" on this one.

And yeah. RIP to those guys. There but for the grace of God and all that.
 
:banghead:
jcremy said:
I only have 500 hours and I just got a aerial mapping job. To get to 500 hours I had to teach for 6 months, which was something I really did not want to do. My nehibor works at Conntinental and said in the early 90's he needed his ATP and Bachelors degree to just get looked at by Conntinental Express. Teaching is not for everyone, it isn't for me but I instructed to get enough hours to do something else.
Click to expand...
I bet 6 months worth of students want their money back. No, it's not just a pet peeve of mine, it's a crying shame I and so many others had guys like you providing "instruction".
 
RICHARD5 said:
:banghead:
I bet 6 months worth of students want their money back. No, it's not just a pet peeve of mine, it's a crying shame I and so many others had guys like you providing "instruction".
Click to expand...


First they where Chinese students who had their training paid for by their respective airline and second thats funny how all of my 6 students always passed their stage checks first try. Even though I did not enjoy instructing, I put 100% effort in to my job, and you give grief because I don't enjoy my job, and would like to actually enjoy flying.

Thanks
 
So when was that AT crash?
Is that the reason the website is down for maintenance?
I mean, you can't be picky and stuff...
 
Well if they are THAT unsafe then of course common sense says you dont take that particular job.

I actually have a friend over there and when I heard about the crash this morning I was glad he was not in the plane.

There website has been down for a long time.

RIP to those on the AT plane.

The main point of my posts is just that low time pilots do not have the option of being picky, especially if they prefer not to instruct. Of course you shouldnt go to a dodgy airline that flys poorly maintained and old aircraft.

What I meant was pilots with low time dont really have the option of negotiating for good pay and what not. You get offered a job at a decent airline paying 20k a year with 250 hours, you take it. Thats my 2 cents.
 
I already have the job. Im talking to others here, low time jobs are out there you just have to look for them.
 
here's a new question...

is it about time we put a new definition for the term "low time". It seems to me that if you have less than 2000TT and 1000 multi, your a "low timer" in terms of getting a job. I've applied to 50 places in 2 months and haven't heard anything other than "thanks but no thanks" from any of them. And some of those places i had more time than their requirements listed, or very close (within 200 hours) of their mins.

I still dont see where the "jobs are, you just gotta find them".
 
I dont know how to explain it other than apply at places that are not listed on climbto350 or pilotjobs. Talk to other pilots or instructors and find out if they know of any small operations that might need pilots.

Colgan is hiring right now with 1000/100 mins, im sure with 2000/1000 you could get an interview there easily. I also heard Pinnacle was going to start hiring again soon with similar minimums.

When people say "low time" I think of pilots that have less than 1500 hours, once you have that a lot more doors open and IMO your no longer considered low time. Others might have a different definition
 
invertmast said:
here's a new question...

is it about time we put a new definition for the term "low time". It seems to me that if you have less than 2000TT and 1000 multi, your a "low timer" in terms of getting a job. I've applied to 50 places in 2 months and haven't heard anything other than "thanks but no thanks" from any of them. And some of those places i had more time than their requirements listed, or very close (within 200 hours) of their mins.

I still dont see where the "jobs are, you just gotta find them".
Click to expand...

Invert, I had just deleted my reply to someone posting that he made $27.50 for a weeks worth of flight instruction flying the incredible amount of two hours. The buddy I had referred to, flies for a FL flightschool that does not have the focus on foreigners and a fat cow to milk by offering financing and prepay. The recommendation to relocate to FL or CA settled the issue.
To me it does not matter if I fly 5 hours for $30/hour or 2 hours for $13.50, both is a joke and does not even come close to justify acceptance. I also talk to people with 8-900 hours actively instructing but trying to get into some corporate world and what I hear is the same everywhere. There are companies that will still hire a 250 hour academy style kid, but they won't hire a person that spend less than 80K and more than 90 days to get to double that. The difference is that the 250 hour kid has nothing to show for, and will most likely be what the company wants him/ her to be. A guy sitting in the right seat, doing whatever it takes to keep the job for next to nothing. Shutup if your CA shoots limits? - sure! Don't schmuck if MX sucks? - sure! Wash bugs off the plane? -sure!

Here is a easy definition for low time pilots:

If you have 250 hours a pedestrian is low timer.
If you have 500 hours a academy kid is low timer.
If you have 1000 hours the 500 hour kid is just a bum
If you have 2000 hours the 1000 hour jockey is just there because he hasn't killed himself...
Yet, asking for 10.000 hours to fly a Lear... is too much again.

A few weeks ago I turned down my third offer, based on the fact that I could not live with giving a Commercial Pilot Certificate away for free and a house full of cockroaches. One one side you do not want to contribute to the further decline of this market, on the other, right now, if you want to fly for a living you might as well scratch "salary" or "income" from your vocabulary. Sure, the world looks totally different if you still work or just had incredible luck. I also realize that not every academy pilot is a bum.
Many of them are good kids and good sticks - more power to them!

The simple fact how this poll turned out to measure, I just realize that people must recognize that there are maybe 400 more or less reputable jobs in the whole country, but probably 40000 people willing to go suck them up at whatever it takes. Chances are slim at best, and I am glad I make my money with and without this market.

I just recently asked a friend if it would make sense to shorten the coverletters and the effort it takes to write them. Why put in any effort? For what, for not even a "thanks but no thanks"?
He agreed, yet, I believe this industry is build on bridges, and just because a employer turns you down today, doesn't mean he can turn you down tomorrow.

For all I know, 3enginejock could be Delta's future chief pilot, unless his real name is really 3enginejock nobody will know who he is, and flying for IBC must not necessarily "hurt" your resume if you survive.

Just wait, there will be "jobs" offering to build time right seat for a small fee again. We had operations like these a few years ago, where you bought your seat into a cockpit to build the times. It will be that same way again. Now it's called "free willing" a few months from now it will cost ya.

No reason to give up. Just keep plugging away.:bandit:
No flame intended - really.
 
TangoBravo said:
Invert, I had just deleted my reply to someone posting that he made $27.50 for a weeks worth of flight instruction flying the incredible amount of two hours. The buddy I had referred to, flies for a FL flightschool that does not have the focus on foreigners and a fat cow to milk by offering financing and prepay. The recommendation to relocate to FL or CA settled the issue.
To me it does not matter if I fly 5 hours for $30/hour or 2 hours for $13.50, both is a joke and does not even come close to justify acceptance. I also talk to people with 8-900 hours actively instructing but trying to get into some corporate world and what I hear is the same everywhere. There are companies that will still hire a 250 hour academy style kid, but they won't hire a person that spend less than 80K and more than 90 days to get to double that. The difference is that the 250 hour kid has nothing to show for, and will most likely be what the company wants him/ her to be. A guy sitting in the right seat, doing whatever it takes to keep the job for next to nothing. Shutup if your CA shoots limits? - sure! Don't schmuck if MX sucks? - sure! Wash bugs off the plane? -sure!

Here is a easy definition for low time pilots:

If you have 250 hours a pedestrian is low timer.
If you have 500 hours a academy kid is low timer.
If you have 1000 hours the 500 hour kid is just a bum
If you have 2000 hours the 1000 hour jockey is just there because he hasn't killed himself...
Yet, asking for 10.000 hours to fly a Lear... is too much again.

A few weeks ago I turned down my third offer, based on the fact that I could not live with giving a Commercial Pilot Certificate away for free and a house full of cockroaches. One one side you do not want to contribute to the further decline of this market, on the other, right now, if you want to fly for a living you might as well scratch "salary" or "income" from your vocabulary. Sure, the world looks totally different if you still work or just had incredible luck. I also realize that not every academy pilot is a bum.
Many of them are good kids and good sticks - more power to them!

The simple fact how this poll turned out to measure, I just realize that people must recognize that there are maybe 400 more or less reputable jobs in the whole country, but probably 40000 people willing to go suck them up at whatever it takes. Chances are slim at best, and I am glad I make my money with and without this market.

I just recently asked a friend if it would make sense to shorten the coverletters and the effort it takes to write them. Why put in any effort? For what, for not even a "thanks but no thanks"?
He agreed, yet, I believe this industry is build on bridges, and just because a employer turns you down today, doesn't mean he can turn you down tomorrow.

For all I know, 3enginejock could be Delta's future chief pilot, unless his real name is really 3enginejock nobody will know who he is, and flying for IBC must not necessarily "hurt" your resume if you survive.

Just wait, there will be "jobs" offering to build time right seat for a small fee again. We had operations like these a few years ago, where you bought your seat into a cockpit to build the times. It will be that same way again. Now it's called "free willing" a few months from now it will cost ya.

No reason to give up. Just keep plugging away.:bandit:
No flame intended - really.
Click to expand...


Yea i agree. I "was" and i guess still am in a way one of those "take the job b/c its flight time guys" no matter how little the pay is. I'm now kicking my self in the butt for doing it. I made $15k in 6 months as an instructor. I made less than $11k in 6 months sitting right seat in the king-air. My hourly flight rate is $11.50 an hour. My ground and maintenance rate is $15/hr . Doesn't make much sense, but sense my employer has a bottomless supply of 250hr "low timers" willing to sit right seat for nothing b/c its a king-air i have to settle (for now) at the pay they give me.

I realize I could very easily get a job offer w/ a regional airline (when they start hiring, matter of fact, i had 3 interviews schedule w/ regionals at the end of last year) but personally, I am NOT interested in the airline way. If i was, i would of done it a bit longer ago. Same w/ the 135 cargo gig. I thought of doing that, but then realized its not for me either. So i'm stuck looking into the fractional, corporate or charter gigs which dont hire w/ less than 3-4000 hours. And those who do never look at the lower time guys b/c it seems they are flooded w/ the "high time" furlough'd guys.

So seems like i'm stuck where i am for a few months longer.
 
So seems like i'm stuck where i am for a few months longer.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with feeling stuck, as is usually includes sitting somewhere.
It's the mentality that is shown above that kills the opportunities for "beginners". Sure, it hurts to be thrown into the same pot as a 250 hour kid, after all they are the ones bringing this misery upon everyone else.
Yet, the industry has no other choice but to cut smaller paychecks, and offer ridicoulous salries for a job that once enjoyed respect and had a status that exceeded that of a underdeveloped janitor.

I'd fly that King Air, and I'd never listen to anyone trying to hold up this fake "I care" mentality by recommending to you not to take a certain job.
90% of these "advisors" are not out to protect you or the industry, but they know that by badmouthing and looking down on certain operators they increase their own chances. Almost all of them dream of a world where they are the rest of a selected few men able to fly. Every person they can discourage enough to drop out will increase their chances.

We have not and will not hit rock bottom for another while. Right now, 500+ hours does not land a job doing anything other than flight instruction, which is loosing it's professional status again by reduced wages + declining benefits. Again if your local operator is hiring or offering a free willing seat that picture may be different, but the tone is quite clear. It's not a sign of stupidity to never have heard of Air Tahoma or some other small town operator, nor is it always financially wise to move to cater to their needs.

A few years ago Pilots where in high demand, the industry had to bend over backwards and reach high to get a good jockey. Now, times have changed again, and a few people are bitten in their asses- badly. Failure to establish standards is what is coming to get them now. Lack of pride.
Maybe it's part of the American dream, maybe it's caused by the level of ignorance and arrogance our people have come to expect from each other, but I see that just as a normal sign of the times.

My signature indicates what I believe in. But so do I believe in God and Good People. Just because I can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Enjoy your King Air! Rather than taking it for granted, everytime you get into it, realize that there are another few hours in your logbook that enable you to land something else down the road. It won't matter much what kind of a person you are, it won't matter much if you are the next Bob Hoover, all that matters will be the numbers and how much you paid for College, or for your professionally created resume.
 
invertmast said:
Yea.. and having a job that doesn't allow you to pay all your bills, which i'm beginning to run into at the moment.
Click to expand...

I hear you! I'm no "financial trouble guru", so I won't tell you how it is to live off small money because I never have during the last 15 years. But, you got some nice times in your resume already, compared to many others - and if you can't land a job with 1300+ and all that King Air time, maybe it's time to look into some sort of position that allows you to fly on the side while using your other skills? There are good paychecks to be made out there.

Looks like buckling up for the rough ride ahead is all we can do.;)
 
TangoBravo said:
I hear you! I'm no "financial trouble guru", so I won't tell you how it is to live off small money because I never have during the last 15 years. But, you got some nice times in your resume already, compared to many others - and if you can't land a job with 1300+ and all that King Air time, maybe it's time to look into some sort of position that allows you to fly on the side while using your other skills? There are good paychecks to be made out there.

Looks like buckling up for the rough ride ahead is all we can do.;)
Click to expand...

I've been on the wooden roller coaster for a year now. I made better money (all-be it, i had longer hours each week) as a flight instructor, but i was happier as an employee.. Anyways, back onto the subject. I believe w/ the market the way it is, low time is still considered anything under 2000 hours b/c with my experiences, it seems that anything under that doesn't get you looked at, unless you just happen to be at the right place at the right time.
 
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