You have no idea of the emotional state of a passenger and why they're traveling. I'd be horrified if someone I knew who was visiting a dying relative or going to their funeral was confronted by police when in a difficult emotional state. I and most of the public don't care about him a great deal in particular, but they do care about themselves and their loved ones and are horrified that this could happen to them. I know for some horrible reasons airline pilots seem to love bashing and insulting the customers paying their salaries as if they're somehow so much better than them, but this incident is totally on management, the same short sighted management you've probably had to deal with during CBA negotiations. Had they had someone in power that cared about getting their passengers to their destination they could have offered them the cash that they're legally entiteld to (not this voucher •) and put them in a rental car that would've only moderately inconvenienced them. Customer service is a huge reason why I and most of the people close to me choose Southwest and I'm sure next time I'm lining up to board there will be no shortage of Southwest customers joking about this incident.
Man Dragged off United Flight
- Thread starter Bonanzaman
- Start date
You have no idea of the emotional state of a passenger and why they're traveling. I'd be horrified if someone I knew who was visiting a dying relative or going to their funeral was confronted by police when in a difficult emotional state. I and most of the public don't care about him a great deal in particular, but they do care about themselves and their loved ones and are horrified that this could happen to them. I know for some horrible reasons airline pilots seem to love bashing and insulting the customers paying their salaries as if they're somehow so much better than them, but this incident is totally on management, the same short sighted management you've probably had to deal with during CBA negotiations. Had they had someone in power that cared about getting their passengers to their destination they could have offered them the cash that they're legally entiteld to (not this voucher •) and put them in a rental car that would've only moderately inconvenienced them. Customer service is a huge reason why I and most of the people close to me choose Southwest and I'm sure next time I'm lining up to board there will be no shortage of Southwest customers joking about this incident.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
I just bought 3 tickets on Avianca from LAX to CTG, I'm very curious about the experience. I've been debating buying 2 tickets on Hawaiian in First Class for me and the lady friend. The price is very reasonable considering its a 5+ hour flight and you get wined and dined. After doing some research I quickly found out the first class to Hawaii sucks lol. Then I found out Hawaiian is beefing it up quite a bit on the new A321's and 330's so I'm holding out until thats dine to buy the tickets.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
After the guy was removed, if one of those
Officers didn't turn to face the rest of the passengers and say "no ticket" than a golden opportunity went to waste and this was all for nothing.
Officers didn't turn to face the rest of the passengers and say "no ticket" than a golden opportunity went to waste and this was all for nothing.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
True. But it's not our job to figure out their emotional state. It's not like cops walked up without notice and yanked him off. By that time, he had been given probably a dozen requests to get off the plane. Trust me, if theres a pilot thats aware of who pays his paycheck its me. I've owned several businesses that was heavily reliant on customer service to be successful. I found out that the general public doesn't give a rats butt about the company, they just take take take because they see dollar signs.
This is coming from a guy who went above and beyond helping pax/thecompany out. Both sides will suck you dry and spit you out after the years.
In fact, let me give you just one example of how the general public treats businesses. Back in 2012 I opened a few "voodoo donuts" type donut shops in Socal. To get people to come in I had a contest every friday on facebook and the winner got 1 dozen donuts. The rules were in black and white. You win 1 dozen donuts that we pick for you and they must be picked up the following week.
So this lady wins. We set aside her dozen donuts for her to pick up on the friday of next week which is the day she requested. She doesn't show up. We called and left her a message and she never responded. 1 month later she calls and the store and says she wants her donuts. I explained to her politely that we had set them aside for her, we called her, we didn't get an answer and the donuts were thrown away. You would not believe the level of sleeziness this lady stooped to to get her way. From threatening to smear the stores name with all her FB friends, to giving bad reviews on Yelp with her friends to you name it. Over a box of donuts that we gave away for free and she didn't pick up and got thrown away. Had she just picked them up like she said she would, even after we called her..... You know why she did this? Because businesses get scared and cave in. And she always gets her way. I never budged. None of the threats she made were ever carried thru. Theres stories like that I can tell you about for days. People did all kinds of nasty stuff just because they saw the business as an ATM machine and target.
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NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Fixtur
Dunning-Kruger Expert
Cazadores
Well-Known Member
Forgot the sarcasm tag, but in the end I think United immediately prior merger was likely set to be the airline to follow and sadly was derailed in the chaos and post merger management incompetence. Fastair, employee empowerment, pride all actively targeted by Lorenzo protégés seemingly working to eliminate any esprit de corps in any employee group.
Regardless, I think it's taking it a bit to far to say this is indicative of a top down culture problem, seems like Munoz was making progress there. I've seen nonsense where people are actually writing editorials alluding this is the symptom of the reason we don't have a successful single payer healthcare system or empowered labor movements.
I just am not ready to call this a vast cultural indictment.
It's simply bad optics, there is a contract of carriage, an employee likely feeling they ran out of options followed a manual of policies which led to the police being called, who may have overreacted. Thing is, had the passenger simply obeyed a lawful request, either by the agent or subsequently police, to leave the aircraft we wouldn't be talking about it right now. Seems every airline in the country could have been in this spot, and United ended up with the short straw.
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Autothrust Blue
PCU M/Y SPIRIT OF MELLIE
Was he or any of the other passengers offered the compensation they were legally entitled to? When the cops came to remove him did they offer to insure he was compensated fairly and to the letter of the law for being involuntarily bumped or was he treated with open hostility from the get go? The vouchers are near worthless, but had I been on that flight if someone offered me 4x what I'd paid and my transportation home I'd have been the first to have taken it and hopped a one way rental. Rosa Parks didn't follow the law and I'm sure there were people giving her a hard time too, but that didn't make it any more right how she was treated.
Cazadores
Well-Known Member
I guess I am a bit callous here, we can have everyone board, and no overbooking. We know how to do that, we did it prior to 1978. For all the public benefit Alfred Khan hatched in the ADA there are consequences, we live them everyday.
As far as I'm concerned if this is such a heinous act and our airlines treat the public so poorly, then rather than editorialize with your camera phone how about set it down and petition for re-regulation. Otherwise, when you buy a ticket, as with any other retail transaction, read the small print, know the warranty, and prepare for potential disappointment. And by all means if you ignore the restaurant manager, bartender or hotel supervisor when they ask you to leave, get up and go with the police when they arrive and do the same. Save the indignation and the customer service complaint for the strongly worded letter in the morning.
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As far as I'm concerned if this is such a heinous act and our airlines treat the public so poorly, then rather than editorialize with your camera phone how about set it down and petition for re-regulation. Otherwise, when you buy a ticket, as with any other retail transaction, read the small print, know the warranty, and prepare for potential disappointment. And by all means if you ignore the restaurant manager, bartender or hotel supervisor when they ask you to leave, get up and go with the police when they arrive and do the same. Save the indignation and the customer service complaint for the strongly worded letter in the morning.
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KLB
Well-Known Member
At times like this it would have been wise for airlines to have an account with a company like NetJets. About a year ago, Delta used Delta Private Jets to shuttle some of their first class customers around due to an issue they had and it turned out very positive for them.
In KLB's perfect world this is what should have happened....
United has a an issue getting flight crew to destination. After offering quite a bit of incintive, no one budges. United calls up their NetJets (or NetJet "like" operator) account manager and tells them they have a problem and need to fly four pax out ASAP. NetJets has airplanes all over the place and can have a aircraft at that airport within an hour.
Gate agent goes down and first talks with the top rewards members offering them an exclusive service on a private jet to their destination. If they turn down, offer it to the rest of the pax. If they turn it down, we'll then use the flight to shuttle flight crew.
Yes, the company will likely lose money this way. But at least they would be able to protect their reputation and the qaluality of their brand.
In KLB's perfect world this is what should have happened....
United has a an issue getting flight crew to destination. After offering quite a bit of incintive, no one budges. United calls up their NetJets (or NetJet "like" operator) account manager and tells them they have a problem and need to fly four pax out ASAP. NetJets has airplanes all over the place and can have a aircraft at that airport within an hour.
Gate agent goes down and first talks with the top rewards members offering them an exclusive service on a private jet to their destination. If they turn down, offer it to the rest of the pax. If they turn it down, we'll then use the flight to shuttle flight crew.
Yes, the company will likely lose money this way. But at least they would be able to protect their reputation and the qaluality of their brand.
I know, but I've seen relatives and friends on the verge of hysteria due to loss and grieving and while I don't relate with this passenger I'd hate to see anyone going through something horrible being treated in such a manner as I don't know if they'd be in a rational state to comply with the necessary requests. If I have to fly my parents anywhere it sure as hell won't be on United.
I don't doubt that horribly entitled customers exist and I can only imagine how infuriating they must be at times. As frustrating as that was you could always just bake the donuts and give them to her and then just say something in a polite way to steer her away from business with you in the future. Sometimes just eating the cost is the best thing to do to get rid of someone toxic, even though the principled thing to do would be so much more satisfying. I've eaten at numerous restaurants and famous establishments in which the owner had signs posted about his thoughts on entitled customers and they weren't hurting for business. I have yet to open my own business, but I like to believe that you can focus on your A and B customers and tell the whiney and manipulative C customers you don't want their business and still enjoy a great deal of success, but we'll see on that.
Cazadores
Well-Known Member
Are you really comparing this incident to the civil rights movement? Rosa Parks, on a public bus?
Further, are you suggesting the airport police engage in negotiating the outcome of a contractual agreement or representation of the individual in dealing with United?
Because if you are you are jumping the shark a bit here. I am confident the agent exhausted the options available, if not then United will need to address that. Maybe United needs to look into its denied boarding compensation policies, I am sure they are as we type. My guess is it will become the most generous in the industry quite soon.
I am sure however it is not the role of the police to know the parameters of the contract of carriage, or the warranty on my car, or to discuss the contents of my dinner if I have a complaint for the chef. The passenger chose to not comply with the request of the agent, to deplane. The police were called and their only purpose at that point is to ensure the lawful request was complied with. When the police come to you and say "Sir you need to come with us to the terminal", I suggest you go with them.
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T/O w/FSII
Well-Known Member
United has lost over 600 million EDIT: 1 billion in stock today.
For all those saying this won't hurt them.
On a side note I have never seen this much media and social media backlash over an airline incident in my life. Literally hundreds of thousands of people. Anyone with any amount of money won't risk their reputation at least in the short term by flying on them. This is going to hurt their bottom line one way or another.
Last thing. As a 91/135 guy thanks for the job security!
For all those saying this won't hurt them.
On a side note I have never seen this much media and social media backlash over an airline incident in my life. Literally hundreds of thousands of people. Anyone with any amount of money won't risk their reputation at least in the short term by flying on them. This is going to hurt their bottom line one way or another.
Last thing. As a 91/135 guy thanks for the job security!
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
You do realize that your job security is at far greater risk from a pilot market flooded by a UAL furlough or UAL retirees with no retirement funds? That was a contributing factor in my decision to leave my 91 job for 121. Retirees were creating downward pressure on wages. Guess who I was replaced by: a retiree.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
No, but I'm saying that even though the law might be on your side that it isn't always right and that disobeying an unjust law or an authority figure acting inappropriately or excessively isn't always a bad thing. I absolutely think the police don't just have a duty to insure that only the passenger follows the law, but that United also followed the law when it came to his compensation for being involuntarily bumped.
That's the assumption you made. The only thing I heard about the compensation was that the passengers were being offered $800 in vouchers, the airline later said it offered up to $1000 in 'compensation' which if it wasn't cash isn't what the law requires them to.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/business/united-flight-passenger-dragged.html?_r=0
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
Question for you guys--how frequently to airlines use MIBA fares to get their crews places on other airlines?
I never got deadheaded on a different brand (even on our own airplanes, ha!) and never heard about it happening, but the MIBA fare schedule looks pretty cheap compared to bumping 4 people off at $1300 each. Any ideas on if/why it's so rare?
I never got deadheaded on a different brand (even on our own airplanes, ha!) and never heard about it happening, but the MIBA fare schedule looks pretty cheap compared to bumping 4 people off at $1300 each. Any ideas on if/why it's so rare?
BigZ
Well-Known Member
This made me cry
SeanD
Well-Known Member
They will bounce back but it does suck they will have to roll with it due to a one-sided 30-second video and an overachieving LEO. All in all, the airline didnt really do anything wrong.