Male Chauvinism?

TheresaPilot

Well-Known Member
Ok, so yesterday I had the worst flight I've had, thus far, being an instructor (and it's been over a year and a half).

I was called around 10:30 in the morning and asked, "Would you like to fly with so-and-so's student today at 1? He is booked and I see you're open." So I said that I would do it. Well, I get to the airport and he shows up around 1, and just kinda has this "Holier Than Thou" attitude towards me from the get-go, so I don't overly try to be his friend in the flight, I simply try to be his instructor.

Cutting to the chace, we are climbing from the airport on an Easterly heading and up to 3,500' to do some maneuvering. First on the list is the VR-IR of basic flight attitudes. So he levels off, really nicely actually, and I complimented him on it, and went about teaching him what it looks like to maintain striaght and level visually and then by reference to the instruments. After that, I said "Let's go ahead and get a little further from the airport before we start any turns" and almost immediately after I say that, he starts to turn! I figured to myself 'Um, ok, maybe he heard me wrong' and began to teach him what a turn looks like visually and by reference to the instruments, blah blah blah, and he stopped us on a heading of 190. I put the heading bug on 180 and told him to turn me left to 180 so we can start some slow flight, since everything else went well with the basic attitudes. I also explain how to use the section lines to fly on cardinal headings by flying paralell to them, and he continues to turn past south, all the way around to north.

At this point, I say to him, "You just want to do turns?" And he grunted a "yes" response so I said, "You know, you're not going to learn anything new unless you listen to me and try new things in the airplane, slow flight is next on the lesson plan, so we should start on that" (which we discussed prior to the flight). So since he just wanted to do his turns and completely not listen to a word I say, I just sat in the right seat thinking, 'as soon as he is done with his turns, he'll stop on a heading of south, and let me know he is ready for slow flight' and after 4 or 5 minutes of his little 5-10 degree bank turns, he said "I'm ready to go back to the airport" so we went back, and I was trying to talk him through a landing, but he was blatetnly not listening to a word I said so I was finally able to get him to get us on the ground and we taxiied onto the ramp and shut down.

After the shutdown, he said nothing, helped me push the plane back, and then left. Went into the airport, slammed his rented headset down on the counter, breaking it (I was able to fix it), and walked out, not saying a word.

Now, he never acted like this before to his instructor, but this was only his third flight. Do you think maybe, since he is a surgeon, that he has a big ego and has some sort of issues listening to a woman, in an authoritative position that is younger than him? I immediately told my Chief CFI what had happened, and he said he would talk to his instructor, and come up with a plan of action. Well, the guy emailed the owner of the company today with "his side" of what happened. My Chief CFI read me the email. It was a complete lie, was not what had happened at all, and it really gets under my skin that someone would act like this towards me.

I have a larger grasp on these things having 850 hours as compared to his 3, you would think he would listen to me, and not diliberately disobey what I had to say.

Has anyone had any issue like this? I realize that 90% of the people on here are guys, so I doubt y'all would be able to relate... But any sort of input? Sorry this was so long.
 
WOW! Not an instructor OR a pilot--but that jerk sounds like a reallll charm. Sorry that happened to you. :mad:
 
Is it possible that he was having a bad day, or is just a jerk? Perhaps it had zero to do with your being a woman. unless there is more that you are not telling us, I think it is a leap to assume his problem with you was strictly because you are a woman.

P.S. you made me go look up "cut to the chase" and now I have learned the etymology. Thanks for the unintended lesson. :)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The phrase "cut to the chase" originated with the movable type for the printing presses. The letters were arranged in a wooden frame called the phrase. On the box were metal 'coins' that tightened the frame and held the type in place. When a phrase was completed the term "to coin a phrase" came about. The completed phrases were put together in a larger frame called the chase. Once the phrases were finished it was time to cut to the chase. Which means that the type was ready to be printed.[/FONT]
 
Q - thanks, I never known it would happen to me, I seem to have one of those personalities where everyone gets along with me really easily.

Is it possible that he was having a bad day, or is just a jerk? Perhaps it had zero to do with your being a woman. unless there is more that you are not telling us, I think it is a leap to assume his problem with you was strictly because you are a woman.

P.S. you made me go look up "cut to the chase" and now I have learned the etymology. Thanks for the unintended lesson. :)

Lol you're welcome. He seemed really nice at first, trying to crack a joke or two outside the plane, but once inside, it went downhill. As of right now, I'll chock it to a bad day in the OR, I guess, and hopefully, for the instructor's sake, he won't have another. Off-topic but, ever been to Bader Field in AC?
 
Q - thanks, I never known it would happen to me, I seem to have one of those personalities where everyone gets along with me really easily.



Lol you're welcome. He seemed really nice at first, trying to crack a joke or two outside the plane, but once inside, it went downhill. As of right now, I'll chock it to a bad day in the OR, I guess, and hopefully, for the instructor's sake, he won't have another. Off-topic but, ever been to Bader Field in AC?

Yep, once when I went out for dinner, and came home to ACY and the field was closed. Had to land at Bader. I wish it was still there. :(
 
Yep, once when I went out for dinner, and came home to ACY and the field was closed. Had to land at Bader. I wish it was still there. :(

I used to work line crew there--summer of 2004. Definately miss laying out during the days while gamblers would fly in and tip me for "a job well done". Haha. :)
 
That's a bummer. While you two are the only people who can really comment on what happened in the airplane that day, it sounds like either he was having a really bad day or has a really big ego. Some of those doctor types are like that.

I'd brush it off as one of those days at the office; I imagine you won't be flying with him again any time soon. If you do, I'd give him a good preflight ground session on what you'll be teaching him in the air. Once you're flying, you're the boss. What you say is what he'll do. Period. You've forgotten more about flying than he'll probably ever know and he needs to respect that.

Happy flying :)
 
Q - thanks, I never known it would happen to me, I seem to have one of those personalities where everyone gets along with me really easily.

I witnessed the very same thing with a very good female friend of mine who also happens to be a CFI. She is one of the most relaxed and dear people I know. She is a heck of a stick and an excellent teacher but a bit shy at times.

However, there is certainly people with heavy issues towards women in aviation and this can go way to far. Keep your chin up, and maybe your chief CFI needs a lesson or two in proper management. If you have no prior record of having aggravated male students, he should stand behind you. I have received emails about employees from customers, and what I do is print it, put it on the employees desk (upside down), with a smiley note saying: "please see me on this". I would never read such email to an employee. Most of the people I work with are calm like camels, so when they aggravate someone, they had a reason. :)

Style cannot be learned, people either have it or they don't.
Next time you fly with a student like that, take the airplane and end the flight.

"Hm, looks like we have a bad day today, you are clearly not up for this, lets go back to the airport, MY AIRCRAFT"

Cheers,
 
I witnessed the very same thing with a very good female friend of mine who also happens to be a CFI. She is one of the most relaxed and dear people I know. She is a heck of a stick and an excellent teacher but a bit shy at times.

However, there is certainly people with heavy issues towards women in aviation and this can go way to far. Keep your chin up, and maybe your chief CFI needs a lesson or two in proper management. If you have no prior record of having aggravated male students, he should stand behind you. I have received emails about employees from customers, and what I do is print it, put it on the employees desk (upside down), with a smiley note saying: "please see me on this". I would never read such email to an employee. Most of the people I work with are calm like camels, so when they aggravate someone, they had a reason. :)

Style cannot be learned, people either have it or they don't.
Next time you fly with a student like that, take the airplane and end the flight.



Cheers,

Thank you.

The reason he had to read it to me is because I work at the satellite airport and he's at the main school. I live about 20-30 minutes from that school and it was a little more eco-friendly to have him read it to me.
 
Thank you.

The reason he had to read it to me is because I work at the satellite airport and he's at the main school. I live about 20-30 minutes from that school and it was a little more eco-friendly to have him read it to me.

I did not know that. Please disregard my comment about proper management, then. ;)
 
Sorry to hear about the bad day.
I think there are a lot of possible reasons why he acted the way he did, including his stressful job. Unless he did or said something about you being a female, I don't know if we will ever know.

I also had a long story guy like that, who wrote an e-mail full of lies. It went a lot like your story. Hopefully your bosses are telling you what my boss told me. "This doesn't sound anything like you and I've heard nothing but good things, kept doing what you are doing".
If they are saying that to you, no worries, this guy is just an odd ball that will cause you grief for a few days. Then it is over and done with.
Keep doing what you are doing!

Also, "I have the flight controls, flight over"..................then comes, as I've heard it said before, the karate chop to the jugular. ;)
 
Theresa,

Knowing where you are and where you work and the rough demographic of your clientele....

This is something you're going to have to get used to/deal with.

There are some men who simply cannot take orders from women. I don't know if it's genetic, psychological, a combination of the two, or some sort of hex cast by The Great Cosmic Misongynist, but it's going to be an issue.

These types of morons (I've worked for a few) will not respect you unless you demand it and - in their eyes - earn it from them. The second he starts ignoring the instruction, I would absolutely give them some version of the following:

"You have two chioces: listen to me and learn from me, or go back to the FBO and work with your instructor. It's my life and ticket on the line with you and I don't care what your particular issue is, if you're not going to pay attention to instruction and work with me, nothing will get done up here. I got a hell of a lot more hours than you and I've dealt with pilots worse than you trying to kill me and I've survived em' all - so I can teach you or not teach you, but there is no middle ground. It's your call. Are you going to work on slow flight or is it my airplane?"

Bullies back down when cornered.

I believe that you were being accomodating with him, and I also believe that he perceived that as weakness, which possibly translated to anxiety on his part because he "had an instructor who wasn't ordering/teaching him."

It's roughly the same personality type that falls under "submissive" in BDSM relationships, ironically enough. :D

Good luck. Tough enough for CFIs out there, being a woman has got to be tougher.
 
Alright I'll analyze this.
At this point, I say to him, "You just want to do turns?" And he grunted a "yes" response so I said, "You know, you're not going to learn anything new unless you listen to me and try new things in the airplane, slow flight is next on the lesson plan, so we should start on that"
You probably came off as an overbearing woman to him. Men don't like overbearing women.

Now, he never acted like this before to his instructor, but this was only his third flight. Do you think maybe, since he is a surgeon, that he has a big ego and has some sort of issues listening to a woman, in an authoritative position that is younger than him?

You probably pushed him too hard-it was only his third flight-if all he wanted to do on his third flight was shallow banked turns, let him.

Well, the guy emailed the owner of the company today with "his side" of what happened. My Chief CFI read me the email. It was a complete lie, was not what had happened at all, and it really gets under my skin that someone would act like this towards me.
Copy and paste his best lies. Let's see "his side"

I have a larger grasp on these things having 850 hours as compared to his 3, you would think he would listen to me, and not diliberately disobey what I had to say.
You know this has nothing to do with how many hours you have. To make an analogy, it would be as if a surgeon responded to a complaint of a poor bedside manner by comparing his medical degree with the education of the patient. It's not relevant.

Has anyone had any issue like this? I realize that 90% of the people on here are guys, so I doubt y'all would be able to relate... But any sort of input? Sorry this was so long.

I think I can relate. I have had a woman flight instructor for my private, instrument, and CFI. I have probably frustrated a one or two of them along the way, one might have even called me a male chauvinist.
If he is the only customer that you have ticked off in a year and a half I wouldn't worry about it too much.
 
Alright I'll analyze this.

You probably came off as an overbearing woman to him. Men don't like overbearing women.

I suppose tone and delivery have a lot to do with it, but I fail to see how this statement would be perceived as overbearing to a student who was willing to learn.

You probably pushed him too hard-it was only his third flight-if all he wanted to do on his third flight was shallow banked turns, let him.

I've only been a student of 2.5 CFIs, but if any of them had let me stay in my comfort zone, I wouldn't have learned anything.

You know this has nothing to do with how many hours you have. To make an analogy, it would be as if a surgeon responded to a complaint of a poor bedside manner by comparing his medical degree with the education of the patient. It's not relevant.

Considering - and yes, I know it's a generalization, but there is a reason for cliches - that enough surgeons are megalomanics to create the general perception, I think it's entirely relevant.
 
Theresa, I can empathize with you. In my very short time of instructing (I'm 18 - so age isn't working in my favor), most of the doctors I've had experience with (not all, I've met a few really great and understanding pilots who are doctors) will not want much to do with an instructor who isn't a 55 year old 74 captain.

I've had one particular student (emphasis on the past tense) who would not listen to one word I said...and he should have. Unfortunately for him kharma can be a...well you know what I mean. I don't want to sound like I have a negative attitude, but it sure put his ego in check.

Theresa, you have a boat load of experience more than I do and I'm sure whatever was wrong will be put into check. Maybe, when he flies with you again, he'll realize exactly why YOU are the CFI and he is the student.

Take care,
Greg
 
Douglas - Next time, there will definately be a straight shot to the jugular. Lol.

killbilly - It definately felt passive-agressive, diliberately disobeying. Almost immature, like how a child would disobey their mother. Classifying him as submissive would definately make sense.

Pete - We talked about what was going to happen in the flight, and most people, once they are done working on something and their instructor says it is up to par, they would be eager to move onto something else, not do the same thing over and over. I don't remember what my Chief CFI said verbatum, but the email was along these lines:
'At first, the flight was going well, she was teaching me and engaging. After saying I won't learn anything, she crossed her arms and looked out the window. After 10 minutes of straight and level flight, I decided I was done and ready to go back.'
He comepletely took what I said out of context in his email and made me sound like I wasn't doing my job, which is what makes me the maddest of it all. I am a good instructor, and I enjoy my job when people will take in what I have to say and listen to me, and I really can't believe something like this would happen.

Greg - I think it's the same for you as it is for me; or at least very similar. When sitting behind the desk I get "you look too young to be an instructor" a lot along with the "oh, you're an instructor?" I've had people call asking about lessons and I told them I would be their instructor and they said that they would rather have a retired captain than a younger person being their CFI. I was flabberghasted. When you get older and more experience, people will start to learn to respect you more, but apparently there still are those jerks that don't want to listen.
 
This was a while back--

I had a female instructor for my PPL (she was actually my second-my first left for an airline job) and she was younger than me--she was one of the best instructors I had--I don't think I would have ever got the landing down part without her--She taught me to have fun in the airplane and that made it way easier to learn. She was professional, smart and an excellent teacher.

I remember one time we landed, and the tower made some kind of comment like "not bad for a girl" or something like that which she blew off--I was ready to climb the steps and do some yelling but she just took it in stride.

She was great and I would have really loved to have her do all my instructing but she went on to the airlines.

She's a Captain for PSA last I heard but she may have even made the jump to the alleged promised land during the last "boomlet".

Point is chauvanism is out there--don't let it get you down.
 
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