Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step down?

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

BE19Pilot said:
I am going to call BS on your POI and your company's check airmen on that...If you recall most of the time when you are given a vector to join the localizer of a precision approach you are given a MINIMUM altitude to maintain until established before commencing your descent...NEVER heard of what you talking about from any 121/135 pilot or an FAA inspector. Unless you hear the words..."descend and maintain" in a clearance, altitude is at your discretion on a precision approach once the approach clearance has been issued.
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Call BS all you want, maybe I'm not describing what I'm trying to say correctly but I'm a company instructor here and did my last ride with our POI and Chief Pilot as he was getting requalled as a Check Airman. That's the way Richard Kramer of the ABQ FSDO wants it done. Sorry dude but the guy with the FAA badge and control over our Ops Specs gets to tell me how to train our pilots and how I should fly the line in his FSDO.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Speed Pilot said:
. That's the way Richard Kramer of the ABQ FSDO wants it done. Sorry dude but the guy with the FAA badge and control over our Ops Specs gets to tell me how to train our pilots and how I should fly the line in his FSDO.
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Just because the man has FAA credentials and control over your Op Specs doesn't mean he is right or knows what he is talking about. That said, in your case, you do need to do it his way, even if he is wrong, until he retires and the next jackalope takes over.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Dugie8 said:
As with all things in aviation, it depends. The biggest thing to keep in the back of your mind is, staying hight and intercepting the glideslope may not, in most cases will not, guarantee that you will meet any crossing restrictions, ie, the glideslope is a fixed plane while step down fixes are a barometric plane that can change from day to day. ATC could very well be expecting you to be at a barometric altitude at some fix for traffic and if you just follow the glideslope you may be too high or low.
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Here is a link to an InFO from the FAA that states what you wrote (although I think your wording was a lot easier to read).

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/info/all_infos/media/2011/InFO11009.pdf
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

B767 said:
I may be stepping out of my bounds here...

If I recall, there are actually 2 "glide slopes" on an ILS. One is correct, and the other is much higher (altitude) signal and requires a steeper descent to the runway. Based on that, and me being me, I'd rather step down and intercept at the appropriate, i.e. published, intercept altitude. I worry that I might intercept the false glide slope from the higher altitude.
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aaaand thats why you cross check your altitude at the published glideslope intercept altitude/FAF!

I personally will intercept the glideslope as soon as possible while flying an ILS, if that means 10 miles prior to the point where the glide slope intercept altitude intercepts the slope (ie FAF), then thats fine. You just gotta check the altitude when you cross that point to ensure youre not on a false slope. This accomplishes the SAME thing as diving and driving via the stepdown fixes, but its a much more stabilized way of doing things IMO. Nothing wrong with stepping down, but to me, it really reduces the workload to just slide on down the glideslope, checking the altitudes as you go.

on vectors, maintain the last assigned altitude till youre established on the localizer. Not sure why this is so confusing and such a topic of debate?
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Speed Pilot said:
I'm a company instructor here and did my last ride with our POI and Chief Pilot as he was getting requalled as a Check Airman. That's the way Richard Kramer of the ABQ FSDO wants it done. Sorry dude but the guy with the FAA badge and control over our Ops Specs gets to tell me how to train our pilots and how I should fly the line in his FSDO.
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Do your Ops Specs have a specific reference to that technique, or were you speaking in general terms?
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Speed Pilot said:
Call BS all you want, maybe I'm not describing what I'm trying to say correctly but I'm a company instructor here and did my last ride with our POI and Chief Pilot as he was getting requalled as a Check Airman. That's the way Richard Kramer of the ABQ FSDO wants it done. Sorry dude but the guy with the FAA badge and control over our Ops Specs gets to tell me how to train our pilots and how I should fly the line in his FSDO.
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Well, its a technique! Maybe your company has established a profile to fly approaches, but I cant see how or why the FAA would care either way... this has nothin to do with opspecs or any other regulation
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Guy said:
Do your Ops Specs have a specific reference to that technique, or were you speaking in general terms?
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General terms. Just referring to the guy as the one with the keys to our car so to speak. In single pilot ops guys fly the line just about any way they want when they're out of sight of the company. As long as no flags get raised, no one is the wiser. As long as when someone's riding along or on a checkride you do things by the book, no one knows. My point was that when we are being watched by our check airman or our POI, that is the way we have been told it should be done. So when those people are looking over your shoulder that's the way you had better do it or you will bust your ride. Trivial, yes. But it's important to the people with the power.

At the end of the day, if it's not unsafe and that's how they want me to do it, all I look to see is if the paycheck clears.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I have no idea why you are bickering about this topic...BOTTOM-LINE...You are on an established segment of the approach...You are authorized to fly NO LOWER than what is published on the approach procedure unless it is depicted as mandatory altitude. Otherwise, altitude and when you begin your descent is at the pilot's discretion.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I also wanted to point out after re-reading this...How many times have you ever actually had a vector to intercept a Localizer for an ILS when you weren't in the approach "gate" for altitude and alignment? I cannot specifically state where it say's it ( I confess to not being a TERPS expert ), but in almost every instance I can think of I was already established at the altitude specified to maintain in the approach clearance. Once again, stepdowns are only MANDATORY if they are specified as a MANDATORY altitude...Not a minimum or maximum altitude authorized on that segment. And, whoat about an RNAV with vertical guidance? Are stepdowns mandatory??? just sayin'
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

If the controllers tell you to "maintain" an altitude...Aren't you already there???
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

BE19Pilot said:
I have no idea why you are bickering about this topic...BOTTOM-LINE...You are on an established segment of the approach...You are authorized to fly NO LOWER than what is published on the approach procedure unless it is depicted as mandatory altitude. Otherwise, altitude and when you begin your descent is at the pilot's discretion.
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Bickering? I was just trying to up my post count. :pirate:
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I see this daily inord. ILS 27L, 30 miles out..."Cross Grabl at 7000, cleared ils 27L approach, maintain 180 knots to the marker". If you just hit approach on the flight guidance panel and relax you migh, and in most cases will bust the crossing. I usually arm the LOC, and monitor the crossing. Then vertical speed down to intercept the GS. There were several violations handed out in one day to UAL a year or so ago. A friend of mine golfs with the ORD TMU guy and he showed him a graphic plotting all the violations. If, however I am outside of the LOC on vectors and told to maintain an altitude until established, you bet your a$$ I am starting down and once established I am looking for a way to get on the glide, whatever that may be.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

triple7 said:
I see this daily inord. ILS 27L, 30 miles out..."Cross Grabl at 7000, cleared ils 27L approach, maintain 180 knots to the marker". If you just hit approach on the flight guidance panel and relax you migh, and in most cases will bust the crossing. I usually arm the LOC, and monitor the crossing. Then vertical speed down to intercept the GS. There were several violations handed out in one day to UAL a year or so ago. A friend of mine golfs with the ORD TMU guy and he showed him a graphic plotting all the violations. If, however I am outside of the LOC on vectors and told to maintain an altitude until established, you bet your a$$ I am starting down and once established I am looking for a way to get on the glide, whatever that may be.
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A real easy fix to this in the EMB-145 is to plug the approach into the box and use pink needle data until you're just outside the FAF. The RNAV data will make sure you hit every step down fix and you won't get the typical windshield wiper action on the LOC that we see if we're more than about 6 miles away from the runway.

Fly it like an RNAV approach, use VS to follow the VPI, and once you're coming up on the FAF and need to actually commence the approach part of the approach, switch into green needles and it'll be dead on, every time.

Works good, lasts long time.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

jtrain609 said:
A real easy fix to this in the EMB-145 is to plug the approach into the box and use pink needle data until you're just outside the FAF. The RNAV data will make sure you hit every step down fix and you won't get the typical windshield wiper action on the LOC that we see if we're more than about 6 miles away from the runway.

Fly it like an RNAV approach, use VS to follow the VPI, and once you're coming up on the FAF and need to actually commence the approach part of the approach, switch into green needles and it'll be dead on, every time.

Works good, lasts long time.
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Yeah right, you'll have the guy in the next seat twitching. For some reason XJT pilots are very...mmm...shall we say sceptical of RNAV during approaches. Granted, most are not "RNAV qualified," but when it comes to approaches, guys love that dodgy LOC needle and think it's a "no-no" to have any RNAV data up. And as far as descending on the plate, most guys I see will always fly as low as possible. Descent planning/sit awareness is not the forte of XJTers. Me, I love the RNAV approaches/VNAV and find it way underutilized.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I was very skeptical of the whole RNAV/VNAV until I used it in the Q-400 sim...I am SOLD! Why would anyone want to use anything else? Especially, in a non-radar environment with terrain issues. Also makes the non-precision 0 flap landing a non-event, but wouldn't you know I got the LOC with a friggin step-down fix with about 3.2 miles to lose about 1000'!!!
 
AIM 5-5-4. Upon receiving an approach clearance while on an unpublished route or being radar vectored, a pilot will comply with minimum altitude for IFR and maintain the last assigned altitude until established on a segment of a published route or IAP, at which time published altitudes apply.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Baronman said:
Yeah right, you'll have the guy in the next seat twitching. For some reason XJT pilots are very...mmm...shall we say sceptical of RNAV during approaches. Granted, most are not "RNAV qualified," but when it comes to approaches, guys love that dodgy LOC needle and think it's a "no-no" to have any RNAV data up. And as far as descending on the plate, most guys I see will always fly as low as possible. Descent planning/sit awareness is not the forte of XJTers. Me, I love the RNAV approaches/VNAV and find it way underutilized.
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Indeed, I've always got to make sure I brief the hell out of it and explain to them that we'll be on green needles before we hit the FAF and start the "real" portion of the approach. We've made some huge mistakes in how we approach the FMS/GPS in this aircraft. We basically fly it like an EMB-120 with jet engines.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Do your OpSpecs specify when you need to switch from long range to short range nav modes? Our's don't and we've had a few POIs in the past get kind of snarky about our lack of procedures. Personally I want to be stabilize (if that's even possible with the CRJ's flight director) on the localizer by the time I hit the FAF so I'll normally switch over 2 or 3 miles out. There is no standard that we are taught though. In fact, I don't think our training department even teaches joining in long range nav as almost all the practice stuff is vectors from a downwind or just outside the FAF.
 
Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

ClearedToThe said:
BS on the ATL altitude busts.

Read ATL jepp 11-0 (PRM attention all users page). Last sentence: "Glide Slope Navigation: Descending on the glideslope ensures compliance with any charted crossing restrictions."
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I noticed that one too...

Sometimes the FAA office folks can't get out of their own way quick enough.
 
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