Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step down?

[sherpa]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I was very skeptical of the whole RNAV/VNAV until I used it in the Q-400 sim...I am SOLD! Why would anyone want to use anything else? Especially, in a non-radar environment with terrain issues. Also makes the non-precision 0 flap landing a non-event, but wouldn't you know I got the LOC with a friggin step-down fix with about 3.2 miles to lose about 1000'!!!

Of course they give you a scenario you would never accept in real life for the sake of trying to make it harder. boo

 

[msmspilot]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I also wanted to point out after re-reading this...How many times have you ever actually had a vector to intercept a Localizer for an ILS when you weren't in the approach "gate" for altitude and alignment?

I and a couple of other pilots at the home 'drome have been having problems with the Center that controls the airport after the TRACON closes vectoring us to intercept the GS from WAY above and, on at least one occasion, vectors to inside the FAF on an ILS. Since a local 135 guy got busted for diving for the GS even though he captured outside the FAF, we're now refusing anything like that and filing an ASRS.

 

[Trip7]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Do your OpSpecs specify when you need to switch from long range to short range nav modes? Our's don't and we've had a few POIs in the past get kind of snarky about our lack of procedures. Personally I want to be stabilize (if that's even possible with the CRJ's flight director) on the localizer by the time I hit the FAF so I'll normally switch over 2 or 3 miles out. There is no standard that we are taught though. In fact, I don't think our training department even teaches joining in long range nav as almost all the practice stuff is vectors from a downwind or just outside the FAF.

Long range, short range? Are you talking about switching from white to green needles?

 

[dasleben]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

VNAV is a nice tool for this, though I can't recall how good it was in the ERJ. Of course, I say a "nice" tool, not a required tool. I personally don't like to have my head in the box that low to the ground. Just make sure you're not hitting "APP" and riding the glideslope down without referencing your crossing restrictions. Simple SA stuff. Personally, I'd start a non-VNAV descent to 3000', ensuring the restrictions are met, then arm approach mode from there.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Do your OpSpecs specify when you need to switch from long range to short range nav modes? Our's don't and we've had a few POIs in the past get kind of snarky about our lack of procedures. Personally I want to be stabilize (if that's even possible with the CRJ's flight director) on the localizer by the time I hit the FAF so I'll normally switch over 2 or 3 miles out. There is no standard that we are taught though. In fact, I don't think our training department even teaches joining in long range nav as almost all the practice stuff is vectors from a downwind or just outside the FAF.

None, as I understand it.

The FMS is a black box to our company.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

VNAV is a nice tool for this, though I can't recall how good it was in the ERJ. Of course, I say a "nice" tool, not a required tool. I personally don't like to have my head in the box that low to the ground. Just make sure you're not hitting "APP" and riding the glideslope down without referencing your crossing restrictions. Simple SA stuff. Personally, I'd start a non-VNAV descent to 3000', ensuring the restrictions are met, then arm approach mode from there.

These days, getting red X's on your GS and LOC at 15 miles out? Normal.

 

[Cav]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

None, as I understand it.

XJT stipulated that raw data (green needles) had to be used as primary navigation from the IAF to the completion of the approach (or missed approach) for all non RNAV approaches. I don't have XJT manuals anymore but it was under Normal Procedures where it talks about the approach checklist in an expanded format....at least it was that way when I left last fall.

Is it wrong for me to say that my XJT aircraft manual was VASTLY superior to my SouthernJets manual in terms of ease of use? I've got to hand to XJT their 145 manuals were pretty solid.

 

[BE19Pilot]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I and a couple of other pilots at the home 'drome have been having problems with the Center that controls the airport after the TRACON closes vectoring us to intercept the GS from WAY above and, on at least one occasion, vectors to inside the FAF on an ILS. Since a local 135 guy got busted for diving for the GS even though he captured outside the FAF, we're now refusing anything like that and filing an ASRS.

Agreed, it does happen at airports that aren't served by a TRACON and rely upon ARTCC for approach clearances. It's apples and oranges between the two different types of radar and Center radars don't have the same resolution as a TRACON radar, because typically ARTCC radars don't do too well with primary radar targets or weather depiction. If it all possible it is easier and quicker to do it yourself if you can via a DME arc or doing the full approach. You run into this scenario out in the boondocks more often than not...

 

[Cptnchia]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Is it wrong for me to say that my XJT aircraft manual was VASTLY superior to my SouthernJets manual in terms of ease of use?

Yes, yes it is. You need to embrace the "Big Bubble" theory, especially if/when I decide to go to the left seat of the ?.

Actually, welcome to Boeing books. You can thank a laywer for us using them.

 

[ppragman]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

And then there's this...

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/info/all_infos/media/2011/InFO11009.pdf

This is exactly why you should get down to the lowest published altitude on the approach. When I get "maintain 3000 until established, cleared ILS runway 12 approach" or whatever, I set my altitude alerter to the lower altitude, and stay at whatever assigned altitude until I'm established. If there are stepdowns, I adhere to them, but try to get as low as I can as quick as I can on the approach.

 

[GlenA]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

So why can't you start down at say, 500fpm, and intercept the glideslope as it comes in? You are still vacating the altitude for the new one, and getting established on the way down to the assigned altitude.

 

[GlenA]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

never mind, looking at that FAA pub I got my answer.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Yeah this whole green needles everything approach at xjt is horrible. We should take off pink needles and do missed approaches pink needles.

 

[dasleben]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Yeah this whole green needles everything approach at xjt is horrible. We should take off pink needles and do missed approaches pink needles.

I kinda like how we do it. Everything is flown in map mode (basically, pink needles), and ILS raw data is shown on the ADI as LOC/GS pointers. No need to swap to raw data on the EHSI unless an FMC is inop. Makes life easy. Absolutely no reason you couldn't do it the same way at XJT.

 

[Alchemy]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

At XJT I was told during initial and upgrade that the opspecs required ground based nav to be used prior to the Initial approach fix on any approach. I never actually read the opspecs and don't think we really had access to them, (weren't they tucked away, hidden in some corner of b. crawford's office?), so I guess that might've been bunk, but I dunno. We were told that we couldn't use FMC based LNAV inside the IAF and were trained that way in the sims. Thus the heading-bug DME arcs and procedure turns in mexico. On the line, I *guess* people just used what worked the best

At current brand X we aren't even required to monitor raw data on non precisions unless we're flying somewhere not in compliance with the WGS-84 datum. Flying a VOR approach with no HSI or CDI is just kinda trippy the first few times. Hope that flight director is working right!

 

[bLizZuE]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Yeah this whole green needles everything approach at xjt is horrible. We should take off pink needles and do missed approaches pink needles.

Thats how we do it.

 

[jtrain609]

Remind me again, because I just woke up and I'm a bit of a hack, but where is the IAF when you're on vectors to an ILS?

 

[Alchemy]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

Remind me again, because I just woke up and I'm a bit of a hack, but where is the IAF when you're on vectors to an ILS?

As far as I can tell, the IAF becomes the point at which you first receive a vector. We all know that's a gray area though; how often are we flying vectors for 5 minutes then told to "proceed direct XXX" (some fix on the final approach coruse)? In that case, the point you're flying direct to would become the IAF in my view. http://www.terps.com/ifrr/feb98.pdf

 

[ClearedToThe]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I can't believe this thread is 3 pages long already...

If ATC say's "maintain X,000ft until established" and you are not at X,000 ft, then you descend to X,000 ft and join the localizer. Once on the localizer descend as appropriate...

AIM

5-5-4. Instrument Approach ​

a. Pilot.
3. Upon receipt of an approach clearance while on an unpublished route or being radar vectored:
(b) Maintains the last assigned altitude until established on a segment of a published route or IAP, at which time published altitudes apply.

These PUBLISHED ALTITUDES can either be a MINIMUM altitude (as 99% of them are), or they can be a MANDATORY altitude. If it is a MINMUM altitude, you do not have to descend down to it because it is a...MINIMUM...not a mandatory altitude. Step down "manually" if you want to do more work than necessary, or stay at the last assigned altitude and ride the GS down and monitor your altitude to ensure you don't descend below the...minimum...altitudes along the localizer.

 

[Dugie8]

Re: Maintain altitude until glide slope intercept or step do

I can't believe this thread is 3 pages long already...

If ATC say's "maintain X,000ft until established" and you are not at X,000 ft, then you descend to X,000 ft and join the localizer. Once on the localizer descend as appropriate...

AIM

5-5-4. Instrument Approach ​

a. Pilot.
3. Upon receipt of an approach clearance while on an unpublished route or being radar vectored:
(b) Maintains the last assigned altitude until established on a segment of a published route or IAP, at which time published altitudes apply.

These PUBLISHED ALTITUDES can either be a MINIMUM altitude (as 99% of them are), or they can be a MANDATORY altitude. If it is a MINMUM altitude, you do not have to descend down to it because it is a...MINIMUM...not a mandatory altitude. Step down "manually" if you want to do more work than necessary, or stay at the last assigned altitude and ride the GS down and monitor your altitude to ensure you don't descend below the...minimum...altitudes along the localizer.

It isn't just as simple as that, for an ILS anyway. Keep in mind, the GS has a service volume of 10 miles. For a standard 3 degree slope, that gives you 3000 feet above the field. In my experience most ATCers don't leave you that high and that far out on the approach course, maybe in ATL and CLT but those are the ginger kids of airports anyway.

As with all things, the answers is always, it depends. Use some common sense and don't just blindly do things, just because. I think Mr, Jtrain touched on it. If your avionics has VNAV capability, get to know how to use it and use it.