Lowers but raised dues?

Classifying it as anything else would be delusional. It's incredible what was accomplished there while in bankruptcy.

You know, I like the truth, and I like facts. I like them so much I've spent most of my academic career seeking them out.

But one of the hardest things for me to learn in life has been that there comes a point where continuing to respond doesn't help you, and in fact it hurts you. It doesn't just hurt your personal credibility, it hurts your argument as a whole, and it hurts others that would support you.

Now, I'm still not always so good with this, to tell you the truth, but at least I normally know when I'm digging myself a hole now.
 
Classifying it as anything else would be delusional. It's incredible what was accomplished there while in bankruptcy.
It wasn't as bad as it could have been, but in the end we have given AMR 24 years (16+8) of flat pilot costs. We have also just spent 16 years not raising the bar and just voted to lower the bar for the next 8 years. It was not a big win, it was what we had to do.
 
It wasn't as bad as it could have been, but in the end we have given AMR 24 years (16+8) of flat pilot costs. We have also just spent 16 years not raising the bar and just voted to lower the bar for the next 8 years. It was not a big win, it was what we had to do.

I disagree with your analysis of the 16-year deal, but setting that aside for a moment, let's talk about what a "win" really is.

In order to determine whether something (or someone) is a success, you have to compare to a reasonable benchmark. For example, in the investing world, money managers are judged based upon their performance against a generally recognized benchmark for whatever the goal of their fund is. A manager responsible for managing a broadly diversified portfolio of equities would generally be benchmarked against the S&P 500, for example. So, let's say you give this fund and its manager $100k to manage for five years. During this five years, the stock market tanks and the S&P craters by 30%. However, your fund's manager was smart enough to see it coming, and pulled a bunch of money out to put into cash and low-risk investments and kept the losses to only 10%. Your original investment of $100k is down to $90k, but everyone else you know has lost far more by investing in other funds. Was your money manager a success? Did he "win?" I think it's clear that he did. He beat his benchmark by double digits and saw to it that your money performed better than everyone else's. It was still a loss, but expecting anything other than a loss in such an environment is unrealistic, or downright delusional.

Going into bankruptcy at an airline is no different. First you have to set up reasonable expectations by determining a benchmark. For our industry, this is pretty simple since just about every airline has been through bankruptcy in the past 30 years. We know what the typical results are, we know how the courts rule, and we know what our leverage (or lack thereof) is. As a result, we know that realistic expectations (our benchmark) is drastic cuts to pay, benefits, and work rules. So, performance better than that should be considered a "win." Expecting to get pay raises and benefits improvements when everyone else has taken cuts is delusional, so setting that as your benchmark for success would make absolutely no sense.

In the case of Eagle, actual loss to pilot compensation was virtually nothing. A bargaining process that has worked well over 16 years was maintained. Job security, especially in light of what is likely in Eagle's future, was incredibly improved. When compared to any reasonable benchmark, classifying this as a success is the only reasonable conclusion.
 
That's typically because pilots don't exactly have the most reasonable expectations. For example, APA pilots expecting 52% pay raises.

See, that right there is exactly the issue I have with ALPA nowadays. You are supposed to represent us. If the majority of the pilot group wants a pony in the next contract, you guys are supposed to negotiate for it.

I went in to our "free" lunch last time I was in ATL for recurrent. We talked about the contract and we were basically told "eh, don't expect much." I get that it is tough times, but that doesn't mean you don't at least try to raise the bar. This "the union knows what is good for you" mentality is ridiculous.
 
What do you mean by "caught?" I still don't see the problem. What business was being conducted over these drinks? Was this drinks after an MEC meeting, or something similar? If so, I'm sure a lot more got done over those $600 worth of drinks than would ever get done over four days of meetings (which costs thousands upon thousands, by the way). Human nature ensures that official meetings usually devolve into speakers' lists that are pages long, with representative after representative bloviating endlessly just to hear themselves talk, with no one ever actually listening to what anyone else has to say, and only spending their time thinking about what their "clever" retort is going to be. Over drinks, the bloviating usually ceases, and things actually get done. Again, I'm sorry if that bothers people, but it's just how the sausage gets made. And it works. Quite well, actually.
He was caught lying about the bogus expense report and even admitted it later in the MEC meeting. You dont see a problem?? It was 4 people in ONE night, that had 57 drinks. 20 Irish Car bombs and 37 other shots and beers. You want to tell me that after 57 drinks between 4 people any legitimate business got done?? This bunch of drunken individuals were members of the Strategic Planning Committee, a committee tasked with planning the American Eagle pilot response to management's outrageous and unnecessary demands. "This drunken soiree occurred recently, at a time when intense negotiations with management should have been underway to defeat management's Section 1113 demands. Where were these azz-clowns? Drunk off their asses. So drunk they could not do simple math. Look at the credit card receipt, simple addition was beyond them."These people are supposed to be protecting our interests and they are out just wasting (stealing) our dues. The total in waste is probably absolutely enormous.. This is just ONE instance of hundreds they happened to actually get caught. The very next day our lovely chairman was posting pics on facebook of him drinking at an expensive steakhouse. Our MEC office has a fridge stocked with beer. It's ridiculous. To top it all off, the treasurer who exposed the incident was the one punished and removed from union leave, the perpetrator got off scott free.. and it was quickly swept under the rug so they could continue with their shenanigans.

ATN_Pilot said:
You should get your facts straight before you go around attacking people. They aren't trying to hide anything, they're just correctly reporting their expenses as they've been told to do.
Clearly they were trying to hide things and LIE. It's all documented and later admitted in a meeting. The Sec Treasurer doubting the validity of the receipt called Finnigans and asked for an itemized receipt. The one posted below with the drinks is what he got. Doesn't look like food with leftovers to me.

Below is most of the story.. There is even more disturbing evidence I didn't post.


Union Dues, They Booze we Lose
In January of 2012 the MEC meet to discuss numerous pilot issues. One of these topics was the purchase of alcohol by union leaders when they attended a group meal that was to be paid for by union dues monies. This was brought about in part by the shock of a newly elected LEC representative who was attending his first of these group meals. He was surprised by the free flowing alcohol and the numerous bottles of expensive wines that continued to appear - as if by magic - on the table throughout the evening. He remarked that he would have to fly four hours to pay for just one bottle. This was followed by the many shots of Patron to round out the event.

This prompted a resolution by a few MEC members to stop the excess. The resolution was not well received by union representatives who believe that the nightly cocktail is a well-earned perk of a union volunteer. After much debate the resolution was passed by a 9 to 4 vote and made the law by which your MEC agreed to live with in the future. A simple rule: “do not use Eagle pilot dues to pay for alcohol when union members participate in a group meal.” At no time was this attempt to force moral values on union officials. If you want to drink, buy it yourself and enjoy. But it doesn’t stop there, it gets better!

With rules there comes accountability, and soon the union secretary-treasurer asked that after a group meal the person who would claim reimbursement to submit a detailed receipt of the meal. This would be a simple check and balance to the rule. Easy enough right? Not on your life. The outrage from the union leadership, your negotiating committee and some committee members was alarming. They vocally objected the need to provide a detailed receipt and saw that as questioning their ethics. Your leaders then went on to claim that the restaurants in the DFW area where they choose to dine do not provide detailed receipts. As a result this would require them to eat at location unfitting their status a union official.

Now that it is clear that your union leadership is using every opportunity to avoid the any means of financial oversight. What will they think of next? Well, I will tell you. Buy all the booze they want and hide the expense under a different name. Why not call it “snacks.” Clever, I’ll say. Just tell everyone that they are performing the work of the union late at night and needed some snacks to sustain them.

What is tragic is that we know this is not a one off event. It is happened multiple times and from the information that we are receiving this conduct has continued unchecked for some time. All of it with the approval of the MEC chairman. As more details become available we will share them with you.
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See, that right there is exactly the issue I have with ALPA nowadays. You are supposed to represent us. If the majority of the pilot group wants a pony in the next contract, you guys are supposed to negotiate for it.

As much as I disagree with the general direction ALPA moves in sometimes, I take issue with this point. Look what happened at USAirways. The leadership (well, the MEC) said that DOH was not an attainable goal during the merger with AWA. The membership (led mostly by the PHL LEC) said "screw what's attainable... DOH is what we deserve and what we are going to get".

And look where that got them.
 
That's typically because pilots don't exactly have the most reasonable expectations. For example, APA pilots expecting 52% pay raises.

Raise?

When did we start calling "snap back" raises?

Leo, is that you? :)


Sent from my Colecovision Adam
 
a huge win in bankruptcy at Eagle, an overall dues rate reduction, etc. I may not agree with the current administration's philosophy on a lot of things, but I can't argue with the results so far.

Yes.. Huge win:rolleyes:

I only lost:
  • A week of paid vacation, which translates into 19 days off with our line bidding (Gone)
  • My guaranteed annual 1.5% raise for the next two years (Gone)
  • Many THOUSANDS of dollars in transition/conflict pay (gone due to PBS)
  • Big Per Diem cut (less money again)
  • Pay banding (5-10K/yr loss to all new upgrades on the 700)
  • Turned into a daily reserve whenever they decide to displace us for IOE. (cost more money to buy our own hotels for lineholders when they do this)
  • Less pay for deadheads (only 50% now) more money from my Burger King pay check GONE
  • PBS (QOL goes to hell unless you are senior) and still a huge pay hit due to no conflict bidding, Hardly any OT available after PBS for extra money or improving schedule with trades, Less Days off from conflicts, Vacations lost days off, less days off all around. Terrible contract language for PBS letting the company do whatever they want.
  • Reduced staffing (less Captain and FO seats needed due to PBS) screwed again..
  • Longevity disparity adjustments 2016 (could translate into huge pay cuts in the future)
  • PTO (less value for our vacation)
  • Reserve time balancing
  • Whatever else I'm forgetting
  • 8 year TA + 5-6 yrs negotiating = over a decade of this garbage (absolutely absurd for a get out of bankruptcy TA duration)
Oooh, but I get furlough protection (that doesn't cover anyone past about #2000, and we have 3200 pilots.) That's nice. Sucks if you're bottom third. We got no guarantee's of any kind for signing this deal that ALPA pushed so hard for. No guarantee of keeping our flying, no business plan for us, No ASA's, nothing.. and they are still planning to continue to outsource.

Yup.. big win, good thing I pay for these drunken idiots services. I'm only out thousands of dollars a year, QOL is going down the crapper and I will never upgrade again. Winner winner chicken dinner.. oh and I get to pay more dues on my 401K now. SWEET!
 
Yes.. Huge win:rolleyes:

I only lost:
  • A week of paid vacation, which translates into 19 days off with our line bidding (Gone)
  • My guaranteed annual 1.5% raise for the next two years (Gone)
  • Many THOUSANDS of dollars in transition/conflict pay (gone due to PBS)
  • Big Per Diem cut (less money again)
  • Pay banding (5-10K/yr loss to all new upgrades on the 700)
  • Turned into a daily reserve whenever they decide to displace us for IOE. (cost more money to buy our own hotels for lineholders when they do this)
  • Less pay for deadheads (only 50% now) more money from my Burger King pay check GONE
  • PBS (QOL goes to hell unless you are senior) and still a huge pay hit due to no conflict bidding, Hardly any OT available after PBS for extra money or improving schedule with trades, Less Days off from conflicts, Vacations lost days off, less days off all around. Terrible contract language for PBS letting the company do whatever they want.
  • Reduced staffing (less Captain and FO seats needed due to PBS) screwed again..
  • Longevity disparity adjustments 2016 (could translate into huge pay cuts in the future)
  • PTO (less value for our vacation)
  • Reserve time balancing
  • Whatever else I'm forgetting
  • 8 year TA + 5-6 yrs negotiating = over a decade of this garbage (absolutely absurd for a get out of bankruptcy TA duration)
Oooh, but I get furlough protection (that doesn't cover anyone past about #2000, and we have 3200 pilots.) That's nice. Sucks if you're bottom third. We got no guarantee's of any kind for signing this deal that ALPA pushed so hard for. No guarantee of keeping our flying, no business plan for us, No ASA's, nothing.. and they are still planning to continue to outsource.

Yup.. big win, good thing I pay for these drunken idiots services. I'm only out thousands of dollars a year, QOL is going down the crapper and I will never upgrade again. Winner winner chicken dinner.. oh and I get to pay more dues on my 401K now. SWEET!
Had I been there I would have voted no.
 
Ryan, it was more then 4 people get your facts right.
Oh, so sorry.. It was 5 people (HW, GE, LW, BR and HC). Not that it makes any difference. 57 drinks + the drinks not shown added onto the expensive group meal charged earlier in the evening.
 
It was 13 people and we really don't know how many drinks they had.
The rep I know privy to the whole thing mentioned only the 5 names. Either way, It's ridiculous and unacceptable for people in that position. They could've just been buying 20 chickenheads drinks the whole time and charging it to ALPA as far as I know. (which I wouldn't care so long as they do it with their own damn money ).
 
Like I said, nothing but rumors and supposition. "Such-and-such rep said they did this!" "Oh yeah, well I heard this other rep said this other thing that's even worse!" "Rabble, rabble, rabble!!!!!!!!1111"

Look, I'm not going to get into details about your own internal MEC politics. I have my own opinions, but I'll keep them to myself. My only point was to make it clear that classifying something as "meetings/snacks" is NOT hiding something. That's exactly how every volunteer is taught to expense these things. Whether it's a few drinks after a meeting, pizza for a local council meeting, or taking some volunteers out for appetizers and drinks to thank them for their service, it all goes under the same category: meetings/snacks. It's the only place that it fits. Saying that they're "hiding" it is just plain wrong. You can claim that it's wrong for them to be purchasing it at all if you want. That's an arguable point with ethical, moral, and even religious significance for some. But calling them liars for simply classifying the expense in exactly the way they're told to do it is BS.
 
See, that right there is exactly the issue I have with ALPA nowadays. You are supposed to represent us. If the majority of the pilot group wants a pony in the next contract, you guys are supposed to negotiate for it.

Which doesn't in any way prohibit the reps from explaining to you that maybe demanding a pony in the next contract might not be the most prudent move. If they explain it, do some polling data, and the data still shows that every pilot demands a pony, then I would agree that that's exactly what they should strive for. But claiming that they shouldn't do their best to educate the membership and explain why certain things might not be such a good idea is just irresponsible. Leaders have a responsibility to not just carry out the will of their constituents, but to try to use the information and experience that they have at their disposal to try to lead the members in the direction that will best serve their interests. If the members still demand something different, then again, so be it. Otherwise, we might as well not even have elected leaders.
 
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