Long live the Viper...

[Hacker15e]

Had this image on a high school notebook cover back in the early 90s... A-16 was something I really wanted to see, with LANTIRN ....

Lots of Vipers have had LANTIRN. It was just that pesky single-seat cockpit task load while low altitude at night that caused them to drop the Nav pod and go only with the TGP. With respect to the A-16, what did them in was the gun pod.

 

[///AMG]

Id argue that the F/A-18 is a comparison multi-role wise, but a stripped down viper flown by a Hornet dude is going to slaughter us in BFM. An AF dude will most likely lose due to his/her lack of willingness to fight it like it should be fought against us but the viper is a superior platform in bfm as a generality IMHO. I don't know what block 60 has added, aside from a boat load of weight, but earlier blocks are far less developed in terms of a/g employment than even early lot Hornets. My friends at NSAWC that fly them use foreflight and an iPad to keep them from busting airspace because there isn't a meaningful moving map/SA display for them to use. Again, that is mostly early block but I have heard the newer ones still leave a little to be desired in the air to mud realm in comparison

 

[MikeD]

Lots of Vipers have had LANTIRN. It was just that pesky single-seat cockpit task load while low altitude at night that caused them to drop the Nav pod and go only with the TGP. With respect to the A-16, what did them in was the gun pod.

The Girls from Syracuse flew with the GPU-5 for a grand total of ONE mission in Desert Storm, and never mounted them on again. So much for "fast-ass CAS", as they called it. Why Syracuse ever traded in their A-10s for F-16s, Ill never know.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Lots of Vipers have had LANTIRN.

So have you guys... Other than Greece and Turkey I don't know who else still uses them. Aren't NVGs a better choice along with SNIPER?

Sent from my Sony Tablet S

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Id argue that the F/A-18 is a comparison multi-role wise, but a stripped down viper flown by a Hornet dude is going to slaughter us in BFM. An AF dude will most likely lose due to his/her lack of willingness to fight it like it should be fought against us but the viper is a superior platform in bfm as a generality IMHO. I don't know what block 60 has added, aside from a boat load of weight, but earlier blocks are far less developed in terms of a/g employment than even early lot Hornets. My friends at NSAWC that fly them use foreflight and an iPad to keep them from busting airspace because there isn't a meaningful moving map/SA display for them to use. Again, that is mostly early block but I have heard the newer ones still leave a little to be desired in the air to mud realm in comparison

Didn't Navy bring back the A/B models after retiring them?

Sent from my Sony Tablet S

 

[Hacker15e]

So have you guys... Other than Greece and Turkey I don't know who else still uses them. Aren't NVGs a better choice along with SNIPER?

Well...sort of...but that's not really what I was talking about and you're crossing your references up a little.

In the early 90s, when this whole "A-16" thing was going around, LANTIRN was the only game in town, and it was somewhat hot stuff. Remember that the LANTIRN system consists of both a Navigation pod (with a TF radar and a FLIR imager) and a targeting pod (with the IR camera and the laser). Vipers were initially equipped with both (as were the Strike Eagles), but most Viper units ditched the low altitude mission during the 1990s and early 00s, and thus ditched the LANTIRN Nav pod. Yes, they use NVGs, but they still don't really perform the low altitude night strike mission.

In the late 90s, the LITENING targeting pod showed up on scene, and some random Viper and Strike Eagle units used them (my squadron used them during Iraq in 2003) instead of the LANTIRN targeting pod. Later, the SNIPER XR targeting pod also came along, which had different strengths than the LITENING pod, and ended up becoming in the targeting pod of choice across the CAF.

Strike Eagles now roll with the LANTIRN Nav pod for the TF radar and FLIR, and the SNIPER XR targeting pod in theater. Stateside, to the best of my knowledge, some units still have LANTIRN targeting pods because they haven't bought enough SNIPERs for the whole fleet.

 

[///AMG]

Didn't Navy bring back the A/B models after retiring them?

Sent from my Sony Tablet S

If you are referring to the Viper, sort of. We initially flew F-16N's, which were eventually retired due to fatigue life/FLE issues. Some years later, we picked up A's and B's at a good price when the Dept of State embargoed the Pakistan order of Vipers, and we grabbed the jets that would have been headed their way. These jets are still in use today.

Also of note, the Hornet originally was equipped with both the first gen Nighthawk TPOD, as well as a NAVFLIR similar to what Hacker refers to. We even were going to get the same thing on the ATFLIR initially, as well as a HUD repeater of the same imagery, but that capability was dropped due to cost considerations. The original NAVFLIR has long since gone away, and I have yet to meet anyone who ever flew with it. In the same sense as the Strike Eagle, they were two seperate pods, both mounted on the cheek stations. I think the big thing was that the Hornet really never developed into a night low level attack platform, though NVG's have made that more of a possibility in more recent years. I'm guessing that experience with the Intruders during the opening nights of the Gulf War contributed to this thinking, but that is just my own speculation.

 

[MikeD]

Well...sort of...but that's not really what I was talking about and you're crossing your references up a little.

In the early 90s, when this whole "A-16" thing was going around, LANTIRN was the only game in town, and it was somewhat hot stuff. Remember that the LANTIRN system consists of both a Navigation pod (with a TF radar and a FLIR imager) and a targeting pod (with the IR camera and the laser). Vipers were initially equipped with both (as were the Strike Eagles), but most Viper units ditched the low altitude mission during the 1990s and early 00s, and thus ditched the LANTIRN Nav pod. Yes, they use NVGs, but they still don't really perform the low altitude night strike mission.

In the late 90s, the LITENING targeting pod showed up on scene, and some random Viper and Strike Eagle units used them (my squadron used them during Iraq in 2003) instead of the LANTIRN targeting pod. Later, the SNIPER XR targeting pod also came along, which had different strengths than the LITENING pod, and ended up becoming in the targeting pod of choice across the CAF. .

To add on to this, the Block 40/42 Viper used to be the king with the LANTIRN. At the time, Block 30/32s were all dumb bomb droppers, then they got LITENING and all of a sudden, they surpassed the Block 40 series as king kong of the small motor Vipers in terms of technology.

 

[mhcasey]

What Hacker said on page 1. The upgrade will be nice and absolutely needed to make us somewhat survivable against modern threats, but is not the final answer.

That being said, the F-35 is supposed to be a hog (no pun intended MikeD) and has an effing canopy bow, so the Viper will continue to be more fun to fly as long as nobody is actually shooting back...

The block 60 is pretty sweet. I just flew at Red Flag with the UAE guys and they handed ass.

At Hill we still train with Lantirns for the most part, but have a handfull of Snipers. I know these things are expensive, but for the life of me I cannot figure out why we can't afford to just buy enough to actually train like we plan to fight. The Lantirn pod is a joke compared to Sniper or Litening.

 

[///AMG]

That being said, the F-35 is supposed to be a hog (no pun intended MikeD) and has an effing canopy bow, so the Viper will continue to be more fun to fly as long as nobody is actually shooting back...

If it develops into the aircraft they say it will, I don't think the "Hornet like" performance is going to matter that much. What you and I both need is a jet that is survivable in a modern threat environment. I'm sure your issues are very similar to ours, enough said there. There is a lot of F-35 hate out there, but the more I learn about it, the more I am a believer. If the F-22 program is any sort of comparison (which it probably is and isn't), it is money well spent. It's not a no-compromise LWF, and I'm sure Col Boyd is rolling over in his grave right now, but BFM isn't everything.

 

[Boris Badenov]

If the F-22 program is any sort of comparison (which it probably is and isn't), it is money well spent.

Are we talking about the same F-22? 25 years, billions of dollars, undeployable, and with the icing that it sometimes tries to kill the pilot? Genuinely curious. You only get one side of the story on the other side of an SCI, but it looks like an unmitigated Failure from over here.

 

[///AMG]

Are we talking about the same F-22? 25 years, billions of dollars, undeployable, and with the icing that it sometimes tries to kill the pilot? Genuinely curious. You only get one side of the story on the other side of an SCI, but it looks like an unmitigated Failure from over here.

OBOGS/whatever it was problems aside, it is an incredible platform. It's not deployed because it doesn't need to be at this point. It is hands down, the most impressive thing I have ever flown with. Outrageously expensive? Yes. A failure? No. It does exactly what it was designed to do.

 

[MikeD]

OBOGS/whatever it was problems aside, it is an incredible platform. It's not deployed because it doesn't need to be at this point. It is hands down, the most impressive thing I have ever flown with. Outrageously expensive? Yes. A failure? No. It does exactly what it was designed to do.

How's it's supposed air-ground capability?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Outrageously expensive? Yes. A failure? No. It does exactly what it was designed to do.

And what is that, exactly? We landed a VW-sized probe on freaking Mars that actually does something for the cost of 7 F-22s. How many A-10s is that, you figure? I'm just not sure what Threat we're preparing for, other than the Threat that Defense Contractors might not be able to spend as much imaginary money as they like to produce a technological wonder that doesn't work.

 

[mhcasey]

I hate to defend the Raptor on a thread about my beloved Viper...so I won't really. This conversation has happened at Jetcareers at least once in recent history. I'll only add that if we do end up fighting another conventional war against anyone who has double digit SAMS or advanced Wankers that I'm in a Raptor because those will be about the only jets with a fighting chance of coming home.

How's it's supposed air-ground capability?

You might be surprised.

Back on topic...the Viper is the greatest aircraft of all time. I love it now, but would give my lefty to have flown it in the glory days of heaters and dumb bombs only (after they worked out all the FLCS/lawn dart issues of course).

Long live the Viper!

 

[MikeD]

I hate to defend the Raptor on a thread about my beloved Viper...so I won't really. This conversation has happened at Jetcareers at least once in recent history. I'll only add that if we do end up fighting another conventional war against anyone who has double digit SAMS or advanced Wankers that I'm in a Raptor because those will be about the only jets with a fighting chance of coming home.

Assuming those are the tactics we go with.....airplanes going downtown first. These days, I could see heavy amount of "battlefield prep" with TLAMs, CALCMs and the like against many of these known fixed, or real-time-known mobile IADS components........like an unmanned Wild Weasel.....prior to any jets (aluminium or otherwise) going in. Prep that would make Desert Storm prep look like nothing.

 

[mhcasey]

Assuming those are the tactics we go with.....airplanes going downtown first. These days, I could see heavy amount of "battlefield prep" with TLAMs, CALCMs and the like against many of these known fixed, or real-time-known mobile IADS components........like an unmanned Wild Weasel.....prior to any jets (aluminium or otherwise) going in. Prep that would make Desert Storm prep look like nothing.

I'm sure there are volumes of strategy/tactics/new gear I am not privy to at my LT level. I am not in the least bit convinced that TLAMs and CALCMs will take down or even really disrupt a modern IADs though. Maybe we can share ideas in a vault someday. But then a bunch of geeks and Generals will share ideas in some other classified area about cool new • we would never know about and we'd just be a couple fighter pilots bull •ting and drinking whiskey. Wait, that sounds awesome!

 

[///AMG]

I'm just not sure what Threat we're preparing for, other than the Threat that Defense Contractors might not be able to spend as much imaginary money as they like to produce a technological wonder that doesn't work.

mhcasey said it pretty well without getting into details that can't really be on a public forum. I'm not all about spending crazy amounts of money......I'd much rather have a better quality of life and better benefits personally, but having a fighting chance of coming home alive would certainly be a benefit of expensive programs like this. There are a lot of scary weapons out there that have been built by the FSU and/or PRC with the benefit of 15-20 years of quietly watching our 4th gen fighters and strikers execute combat missions in their backyards. There are plenty of places that have these weapons and know how to use them, in contrast with recent endeavors in Iraq or Libya.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Then how much is Too Much? Like, how much money should we spend on weapons systems that, even if they become deployable (which they usually don't, AFAICT), are intended for some theoretical threat? What percentage of our government spending should be for defense? How did you arrive at that number? What if it becomes more than that? What if there are "good" reasons for it becoming more than that number? When does it end? When do we stop Ruling by Fear? What if we actually invested all of this money in Education rather than blowing • up?

I can count on zero fingers all the things that the F-22 has ever done for me.

 

[mhcasey]

Then how much is Too Much? Like, how much money should we spend on weapons systems that, even if they become deployable (which they usually don't, AFAICT), are intended for some theoretical threat? What percentage of our government spending should be for defense? How did you arrive at that number? What if it becomes more than that? What if there are "good" reasons for it becoming more than that number? When does it end? When do we stop Ruling by Fear? What if we actually invested all of this money in Education rather than blowing up?

I can count on zero fingers all the things that the F-22 has ever done for me.

Alright dude...let me throw out a few ideas:

1) You're asking questions that I think are extremely important, but this is an aviation forum and even the military bros here aren't in the know and probably don't care to know how to intelligently respond to nation strategy level questions concerning how this nation and its investments should be run.
2) The tactical military aviators here are (I think?) in total agreement that in our 4th gen fighter business, we are grossly outmatched by a number of modern threats than we cannot openly discuss here.
3) You have zero idea what the raptor has done for you. I can tell you personally that at my gig it will be worth its weight in gold (maybe it no • is already?) if we go to a legit war. I can also tell you that the fancy jets you see showing up in Russia/China are no coincidence. They find value in the technology too and you can bet your ass that the F-22ski will be purchased by anyone with a pocket deep enough to afford the latest • Russia is willing to sell. If nothing else maybe we are keeping the pressure on them to keep up. And by the way, the Raptor is expensive and the acquisitions process is a disaster wholesale in this country, but you'd be a real clown to think that the gucci new military technology produced over the years has not spilled into the average joe world in a big way.
4) Dude, I am on board - I wish we could all just get along and we could focus on [insert noble domestic cause]. But some folks smarter or at least more popular than the rest of us made it into office and into powerful positions via our democratic process and have decided that America wants to hold the hammer or at least some significant say on the security of our assets at home and abroad and that very real threats either already exist or may emerge that can and will grab us by the nuts of we tuck tail and run or show up to the next conflict without our • in a sock (end gross run on sentence).
5) I appreciate your patriotism and desire to make real and measurable improvements in this country, but on this particular issue the handfull of men who's lives are actually on the line seem to all support the Raptor...and hope to god that the F-35 delivers as advertised...and know the Viper will be damn near worthless without these upgrades...and are in full support of CT BFM/BSA every Monday/Friday and free baseball tickets for military members.

Cheers