Loggin solo time as PIC

[matt152]

FAR 1.1

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

The student pilot is ACTING as pilot in command on a solo flight. Without 61.51, he would not be able to LOG it as PIC.

That's my take on it. Could be wrong.

 

[MikeD]

FAR 1.1

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

The student pilot is ACTING as pilot in command on a solo flight. Without 61.51, he would not be able to LOG it as PIC.

That's my take on it. Could be wrong.

:deadhorse:

 

[MikeD]

Sort of.

As I recall, my old logbook has two notations in it. One is after I got my private where it says that time prior to this date is solo but not PIC, that it's PIC time that's being counted forward and that the column time is being re-set to zero.

The second notation is post-1997 where it says that I have re-added my solo time to the PIC totals due to the change in the rules.

I should probably get off my butt at some point and actually do something like that.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I should probably get off my butt at some point and actually do something like that.

I'm not sure why you'd bother 12 years later.

 

[MikeD]

I'm not sure why you'd bother 12 years later.

Oh I know. I guess more for overall accuracy, if I really wanted to be nitpicky about it.

Back in that day, I did wonder that when I was flying solo if I could be violated by ATC for anything, since technically I wasn't the PIC?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Oh I know. I guess more for overall accuracy, if I really wanted to be nitpicky about it.

Back in that day, I did wonder that when I was flying solo if I could be violated by ATC for anything, since technically I wasn't the PIC?

Technically you were the PIC. Just couldn't log it because, for some reason, the FAA decided not to let you count it toward advanced certificates and ratings.

Nosehair chides me about using the phrase "writing numbers on a piece of paper while sitting at a desk with a beer in your hand" when referring to the rules of logging. But that's pretty much the attitude one needs to take to them.

The logging rules have nothing to do with operating responsibility. All they really are is a series of FAA policy decisions about how to count FAA time toward FAA certificates, ratings and currency. Some of them make some kind of sense; others don't. You can see it in that series of recent FAA Legal decisions on counting cross country time. IMO there's no real legal analysis in them - just working with the words in a way that gets the result Flight Standards wanted.

Someone once led me to the regs from the 1930s, '40s and 50s. It was kinda interesting (ok, I was recovering from surgery and drugged) but you saw the same kinds of decisions at work. One of the interesting ones was using dual time toward the commercial certificate - you could count sole manipulator time (it just wasn't called PIC)while receiving dual, but only a portion of it.

 

[MikeD]

Technically you were the PIC. Just couldn't log it because, for some reason, the FAA decided not to let you count it toward advanced certificates and ratings.

Nosehair chides me about using the phrase "writing numbers on a piece of paper while sitting at a desk with a beer in your hand" when referring to the rules of logging. But that's pretty much the attitude one needs to take to them.

The logging rules have nothing to do with operating responsibility. All they really are is a series of FAA policy decisions about how to count FAA time toward FAA certificates, ratings and currency. Some of them make some kind of sense; others don't. You can see it in that series of recent FAA Legal decisions on counting cross country time. IMO there's no real legal analysis in them - just working with the words in a way that gets the result Flight Standards wanted.

Someone once led me to the regs from the 1930s, '40s and 50s. It was kinda interesting (ok, I was recovering from surgery and drugged) but you saw the same kinds of decisions at work. One of the interesting ones was using dual time toward the commercial certificate - you could count sole manipulator time (it just wasn't called PIC)while receiving dual, but only a portion of it.

Fully agree. That's why I wasn't clear about the reasoning back then when I was a student pilot, as I hadn't been aware then of the acting vs logging of PIC, since I couldn't log it anyway. But I do wonder the original reasoning of why it was the way it was back then.

 

[richarms]

Fully agree. That's why I wasn't clear about the reasoning back then when I was a student pilot, as I hadn't been aware then of the acting vs logging of PIC, since I couldn't log it anyway. But I do wonder the original reasoning of why it was the way it was back then.

Well, as a "back in the day" CFI, maybe I can help. The general thinking was a student was not the PIC, they were under the care of an instructor to help make decisions/review plan of actions/OK flight planning/etc. Same reasoning as not letting them take a passenger or decide on cross-country flights by themselves today. They had a "learner's permit". When they received their private certificate they could log PIC while training for advanced certificates/ratings while carrying passengers.

Certainly not an authoritative document, but the general reasoning many of us (including the GADO) had then.

 

[APACHEpilot]

Do you guys log PIC and dual received together ? Or lets say that you have a private pilot who wants a BFR? Or a private pilot student getting an instrument rating in simulated instrument conditions, would you log that PIC and dual received ?

 

[tgrayson]

would you log that PIC and dual received ?

Of course.

 

[APACHEpilot]

For some reason my flight school prefers that all of the columns in my students logbook add up to the total time? They want Dual and PIC to add up to total time. But by doing that I think your robbing the students of some valuable PIC time down the road.

 

[ppragman]

For some reason my flight school prefers that all of the columns in my students logbook add up to the total time? They want Dual and PIC to add up to total time. But by doing that I think your robbing the students of some valuable PIC time down the road.

Little non-sequitor here

Wanna know a secret? Turns out that log books don't really mean anything. I'd estimate that mine is under my actual flight time by about 10%. I usually round down when deciding whether to put .1 or .2 or whatever in minutes. Also, a bunch of my time came off of an airhobbs at my first gig. The log book is only an easy way to show that you've met currency, or that you have the required aeronautical experience for a license or rating. If you have all of the ratings done that you intend on getting, your log book then is only a way to tabulate your time for future employment. And really, after you get on at a 135/121 gig, you have to keep track of your flight and duty times anyway. If you're flying cargo part 135, IFR, I can't think of anything you would have to log if you didn't want to, and I knew some guys who didn't really log time anymore. IFR Currency? Covered by their 297 ride. Take offs and landings in the last 90? Doesn't matter their cargo only. If you never want to leave your current job, the only reason to log time is so you can look at how much time you have and smile (which a lot of guys do), or to make sure you can get a job if your company goes under.

 

[msmspilot]

Do you guys log PIC and dual received together ? Or lets say that you have a private pilot who wants a BFR? Or a private pilot student getting an instrument rating in simulated instrument conditions, would you log that PIC and dual received ?

Why wouldn't you? The private pilot is certified in category and class, and they are the sole manipulator of the controls, so how is that not loggable as PIC?

It is, of course, also dual received, and for you, PIC time under the "time acting as an instructor" clause.

You mention simulated instrument conditions. A PP receiving instrument instruction in actual can also log PIC time, again because they are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which they are rated.

 

[APACHEpilot]

I agree totally ! I couldn't figure out why they wanted me to not do it that way ? Maybe it's just there preference. It just didn't make any sense to me. I'm going to continue to log both dual and pic. Thanks for the input !

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

For some reason my flight school prefers that all of the columns in my students logbook add up to the total time? They want Dual and PIC to add up to total time.

I'd ask the school two questions:

1. Why shouldn't I log both PIC and dual when the FARs allow me to?

2. What other FARs do you prefer I not follow?

 

[Mike H]

2. What other FARs do you prefer I not follow?

Reminds me of an employee I had at a previous job. He kept explaining about some condition of his work release "It's not a court order; the judge told me to do it"

 

[APACHEpilot]

Reminds me of an employee I had at a previous job. He kept explaining about some condition of his work release "It's not a court order; the judge told me to do it"

Well the Judge told me to do it, don't think I'll follow through with it !