Loggin solo time as PIC

[subpilot]

My students don't log PIC during pre-PPL solo flights. They also don't log PIC for most dual flights after PPL but I have a good reason for it. They are all JCAB (Japanese) students and they have different logging rules than the FAA. I still like to rag on my students and ask them who was the PIC after they got back from solo flights.

As for everyone else, Pt 61 spells it out in black and white for all to read that it is legal and expected that a solo student will log the flight as PIC.

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

 

[pwttogfk]

Why would not logging PIC make it easier to fill in the PIC column in an 8710?

There're separate columns for "solo" and PIC...I guess there's no reason to not log it as both.

 

[Mike H]

For those who don't remember, until 1997 a solo student could not log PIC.

I don't think you're correct on this

I started flying in late 1991, and ALL of my solo time was logged as PIC. When I did the checkride in early 1992. The DPE looked over the very few pages in my logbook pretty thouroughly- made sure I had the required X-Country & Night experience, and had no issue whatever with the solo/PIC time logged. I suppose it's possible he didn't notice it, but that would have been the only thing that went unnoticed.

 

[tgrayson]

I started flying in late 1991, and ALL of my solo time was logged as PIC...The DPE...had no issue whatever with the solo/PIC time logged.

Not valid objections. The average instructor is, to this day, confused about what constitutes PIC time, and I suspect the random DPE isn't a whole lot better off. It's unwise to use these two sources as evidence for anything.

You'd really need to cough up an ealier version of 61.51(e) to even begin to construct an argument.

 

[subpilot]

Ok, I just noticed something.

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

The bolded part does not say student pilot. I don't have time right now to look into this deeper. I know that it is ok for a student to log but my own quote of pt61.51(e) does not support this.

 

[tgrayson]

The bolded part does not say student pilot.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

 

[subpilot]

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

Thanks. Like I said I knew it was in there.

 

[shdw]

Sorry. I forgot. Senior moment.

:clap: It's ok, from what I read they only get worse.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I don't think you're correct on this

I started flying in late 1991, and ALL of my solo time was logged as PIC. When I did the checkride in early 1992. The DPE looked over the very few pages in my logbook pretty thouroughly- made sure I had the required X-Country & Night experience, and had no issue whatever with the solo/PIC time logged. I suppose it's possible he didn't notice it, but that would have been the only thing that went unnoticed.

It was common practice pre-1997 to use the PIC column for student solos instead of having two separate columns. In many logbooks it was called solo/PIC.

At the time there was no solo requirement for the commercial, so the only time one bothered to log solo was as a student pilot. A dedicated "solo" logbook column would become useless as soon as one obtained the private certificate so it didn't make much sense to have one.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Not valid objections. The average instructor is, to this day, confused about what constitutes PIC time, and I suspect the random DPE isn't a whole lot better off. It's unwise to use these two sources as evidence for anything.

You'd really need to cough up an ealier version of 61.51(e) to even begin to construct an argument.

Or you can go to the 1997 Final Rule in the Federal Register where it discusses the change. Among them:

==============================
The FAA proposed to permit student pilots who meet certain provisions to log pilot in command flight time when they: are the sole occupant of the aircraft; have a supervised pilot in command flight endorsement; and are undergoing a course of training for a pilot certificate or rating or are logging pilot-in-command time toward a certificate or rating.

Comments: HAI objects to the wording of proposed § 61.51(f) because it does not provide for students logging pilot-in-command time beyond that needed for experience requirements. HAI asks for clarification as to how the additional time would be logged. AOPA finds the issue of supervised pilot-in-command time unclear with regard to logging of flight time.

FAA Response: For the reasons previously discussed, the FAA is not adopting the proposal to establish supervised pilot-in-command time. However, the final rule still permits student pilots to log solo time as pilot-in-command time according to the provision in § 61.51(e)(4) of the final rule.
==============================

 

[MikeD]

It was common practice pre-1997 to use the PIC column for student solos instead of having two separate columns. In many logbooks it was called solo/PIC.

Which is how my first logbook from the '80s is constructed.......the solo and PIC columns are as one (solo/PIC), not separate.

At the time there was no solo requirement for the commercial, so the only time one bothered to log solo was as a student pilot. A dedicated "solo" logbook column would become useless as soon as one obtained the private certificate so it didn't make much sense to have one.

Same as I remember. Like I said before, I technically should now have 20 or so more PIC hours than I do (not that I care) due to the fact of logging solo only back in the day as a student pilot doing PPL.

 

[SteveC]

Which is how my first logbook from the '80s is constructed.......the solo and PIC columns are as one (solo/PIC), not separate.



Same as I remember. Like I said before, I technically should now have 20 or so more PIC hours than I do (not that I care) due to the fact of logging solo only back in the day as a student pilot doing PPL.

If they were the same column...what did you do, go back and subtract the solo out of the total solo/PIC? Otherwise your solo would be included as PIC, which is what is allowed now, eh? Or am I misreading sumtin'?

 

[MikeD]

If they were the same column...what did you do, go back and subtract the solo out of the total solo/PIC? Otherwise your solo would be included as PIC, which is what is allowed now, eh? Or am I misreading sumtin'?

I counted the solo time before PPL as just solo, not PIC, when I finally divided up the columns with the new logbook; as the rule still had not changed when I started my second logbook. (am nearing the end of my third full logbook now).

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

If they were the same column...what did you do, go back and subtract the solo out of the total solo/PIC?

Sort of.

As I recall, my old logbook has two notations in it. One is after I got my private where it says that time prior to this date is solo but not PIC, that it's PIC time that's being counted forward and that the column time is being re-set to zero.

The second notation is post-1997 where it says that I have re-added my solo time to the PIC totals due to the change in the rules.

 

[mooneyguy]

Definitely discuss it with your Instructor. I had a couple cases where I had a cfi who was wrong about something and after some discussion and review they walked away with some new knowledge. Don't be a butt about it, ask him him to review it with you, and then get into the regs with him...It will be a good learning experience for you both.

 

[ChasenSFO]

The only way it might look shady is if you have a couple hundred hours of PIC before you get your private pilot certificate. Log it legal, you'll have 10 hours (and maybe some change), and it'll be just like everyone else's logbook. Nothing suspicious about that.

And what if your PPL took you like 80 hours because of a ton of brick walls and stretched out over 4 years and you ended up with 20+ hours PIC before your private? Do I have to explain that in an interview or something since its more than most people?

 

[msmspilot]

And what if your PPL took you like 80 hours because of a ton of brick walls and stretched out over 4 years and you ended up with 20+ hours PIC before your private? Do I have to explain that in an interview or something since its more than most people?

Why pick nits? Just don't be the guy with triple digit PIC time before his private checkride with cross countries logged without an endorsement from a CFI.

 

[The Gardener]

And what if your PPL took you like 80 hours because of a ton of brick walls and stretched out over 4 years and you ended up with 20+ hours PIC before your private? Do I have to explain that in an interview or something since its more than most people?

People who train younger that 17 could easily run into this problem. Theoretically a student could crack out 50 hours of PIC x/c time while they are still 16 and complete their IFR requirements. Then, on their 17th birthday become a private pilot with instrument privileges.

I'd suspect that if somebody did this and came to an interview and were called out on it, the interviewee would be quite impressed. i knew a guy once who couldn't upgrade to captain at his airline because he wasn't 25. He was instructing after he got out of class in high school.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Yup, I started at 15. It was a serious question, I was just wondering if I would ever hear "Why do you have twice the pre-PPL solo time that everyone else has?".

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Yup, I started at 15. It was a serious question, I was just wondering if I would ever hear "Why do you have twice the pre-PPL solo time that everyone else has?".

If my time were presented that way, I'd expect to hear it even if it was just to make conversation. Of course, you have a high-quality answer if it was that you loved to fly so much as a kid that you started early and couldn't get your certificate for a whole year after you soloed so you put in the extra hours to keep your skills up. I'd be more concerned about the interviewer being worried about whether, if mom and dad paid for all that, you might be a little spoiled (even if not true) – notice not a "logging correctly" issue at all.

What sort of gets me about all the supposed interview logging "gotchas" is that if so many of them have very simple answers (unless, of course you are really falsifying your logbook). There are probably far more difficult questions in the process that seem innocuous but are calculated to glean really important information - like your attitude toward regulation in general and how you would perform in either a superior or subordinate role in a multi-pilot crew.