SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Crop Duster said:
Why would you expect an airport in a barely populated area to be busy?
Again, expectations are out of wack.
Local airports close as General Aviation wanes
- Thread starter MikeD
- Start date
Why would you expect an airport in a barely populated area to be busy?
Again, expectations are out of wack.
Crop dusting?
D
Deleted member 27505
Guest
Well, see, I thought we were talking in terms of historical context. They used to be much busier. Also, I made no mention of population. I mentioned economy.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
Maybe it's just the passing of time. I'm "healthy" but certainly not as robust as I once was
The pattern here at Sky Acres (44N) is full each weekend morning with good weather and you still generally wait for a table at Tail Winds Cafe as folks fly in for breakfast and lunch.
I think a study of the demographic might reveal something a little bit concerning there.
The pattern at my airport is full on weekends, but it's only about 25% as full as it was 10 years ago, when we had two tower frequencies and a line 8 deep to get into the runup area. The difference is the demographic now is either the rich guy with a TBM or CJ1, or the old timer with his barely (and sometimes not) airworthy bonanza. There is still a lot of flight training going on, but it's mainly foreign students.
The rich guys are going to still be here, or they'll lose interest maybe, but the old guys will die eventually and no one will take their place. If you took away the foreign students at my airport several businesses would be in trouble. As it is already they have a hard time in the winter months, although that's one of the few places the drought has been a blessing in the last couple years.
"GA" as we know it, isn't perfectly healthy at all, it's practically dead. There are still a few people out there fortunate enough to be able to fly for frivolous reasons, but it's not a hobby that's accessible to anyone but the rich anymore.
And this is exactly what I observe in my area, very few private planes flying, mostly all flight school for the foreigners. Small GA just doesn't have much going on, not as much as it used to. KRYN is deader than dead, except for a few bits of transient traffic wanting to use the ILS for practice, else nothing at all going on at that field since the ATTI training for foreigners disappeared, and the ramps are empty. KGYR is kept alive by airliner storage, as even the Lufthansa training Center is far less volume than it used to be. KDVT is all foreign students mostly......the two competing FBOs struggling to keep their line guys busy. Luckily, people from off airport frequent DVTs restaurant as its one of the very few airport restaurants with dinner service, but that doesn't do much for the airport itself. And those are just a few off the top of my head.
This is true. Nearly all bases had them, now very few do, and even those are struggling to stay alive.
All very true. And seen to varying degrees in my own travels over the years.
People would be amazed to know how many airports have no crash rescue or fire dept, as there's no requirement to if no pax air service. And even those that do have the truck from free grant money, that it may or may not be operable (what? it costs a ton of money to maintain this beast we got for free?). And may only be present for "look". Frustrating to see as an ARFF contractor.
kryan11
Well-Known Member
KDVT doesn't struggle to keep their line guys busy. We had one of the busiest winters/springs on record this year. Not to mention the 750+ hangars located on the field that are all currently full. It's not what it once was, but it's definitely not struggling by any means.
The thing keeping that place alive is TransPac. TransPac goes, the two FBOs there won't both last.
Yeah, full hangars. How many have a dead or permanently in-maintenance airplane inside? I'm in the south hangars, and its rare to see a hangar in my row with aircraft movement. North hangars may be doing somewhat better. Heck, look at the covered tiedowns or even open parking.....planes haven't moved in years in some of those.
At your age, how would you even know what DVT "once was"?
The best thing DVT has going for it is its restaurant. And I don't mean that as a joke; that place is run well, has a wide variety menu, is situated to where it attracts off-airport non-aviation customers and advertises to same, and has dinner service, which most airport restaurants don't have.
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rockman2343@aol.com
Well-Known Member
When ever I flew into Ryan, I'd tell my students if I were an air traffic controller, this is where Id want to be. Easiest gig in the country.
X-Forces
Big Black Guy
<cough> Glendale.... <cough>
RYN used to be busy when ATTI used to be there with their Bonanzas and Barons, kind of a carbon copy of ATCA/Lufthansa at GYR. Between them occupying the ramp by the restaurant, and the spray/firefighting operation on the east side, the place got used. Since both have gone, that airfield is a ghost town. How the contract ATC remains and for how long it will continue to, remains to be seen.
Yeah, even they kind of hang their hats on Cardinals game traffic filling their ramp, for the times when little else is going on.
I remember when that place was first built in the mid-1980s. It replaced the old Glendale airport located at Grand Ave / Olive Ave, which was too short a runway with too many obstacles and too small a field. Was always a challenge landing there on RW 17, with Grand Ave traffic, and when the train was running underneath you. A high profile 1977 accident there sealed that place's fate. Even that was considered too close to LUF at the time, yet they moved the field much closer to LUF. Would've moved there with them, but their hangar monthly proces were exhorbiant even back then.
kryan11
Well-Known Member
The thing keeping that place alive is TransPac. TransPac goes, the two FBOs there won't both last.
Yeah, full hangars. How many have a dead or permanently in-maintenance airplane inside? I'm in the south hangars, and its rare to see a hangar in my row with aircraft movement. North hangars may be doing somewhat better. Heck, look at the covered tiedowns or even open parking.....planes haven't moved in years in some of those.
At your age, how would you even know what DVT "once was"?
The best thing DVT has going for it is its restaurant. And I don't mean that as a joke; that place is run well, has a wide variety menu, is situated to where it attracts off-airport non-aviation customers and advertises to same, and has dinner service, which most airport restaurants don't have.
Cutter fuels exclusively Transpac, and Transpac rents the buildings and tie down spaces from them as well. Atlantic fuels Westwind. I'm in the south hangars, row 22 and the planes on both sides of me go out regularly.
I went out and did flight training with my dad out there when I was 10. He was trying to buy a plane and there was a 2 year waiting list for a hangar, and every tie down spot was filled. Also, I've heard a few stories. On the flip side, there are a lot more hangars available now, and only a 3 months waiting list.
The restaurant just got new owners, they're getting their liquor license which should help them out quite a bit. I would say the best thing DVT has going for them right now, is the amount of jet traffic they're starting to get. A lot of people don't want to deal with the traffic and prices of Scottsdale, so they're using DVT as an alternative. DVT also has Phoenix PD that flies out of there, and I know Cutter just got a DOD contract, so I think you'll start to see some more military activity there. I'm not trying to be argumentative, this is just what I see from day to day at DVT.
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That's what I mean, the field is now almost exclusively dependant on TransPac, for bettter or for worse. The days......prior to the existance of you.....when it was Thunderbird Aviation and their flight test operations (what's now Cutter), the PD was flying 500D/520s, Honeywell was Sperry, and the tower located next to the restaurant, was the heyday. And it's sadly not coming back. Not the airports fault as there's only so much they can do. When we moved from old Glendale to DVT, the south hangars were $77/month (north hangars/ramp didn't exist as such). Been in same hangar 15 row since then.
Go look at the south ramp t-shades and open parking on the south side and east side by PD; or the T-shades mid-ramp northeast of Cutter. They're either mostly derelict planes or empty. The hangars around 13-17 are like a ghost town. And that's not even addressing the west ramp t-shades where more derelicts exist. Sad because there are some nice airplane types located there.
Things were alot different from the 1980s through now there, believe me. I've been there and still am, as well as around the airport scene around the valley. The only one with major growth has been SDL (PHX too, but not including them), and that's due to corporate. IWA to a certain extent, but only due to mission change. Again, none of this is any individual airport's fault, its just that there's only so many slices of aviation pie to go around for the valley's airports, unfortunately.
Jet traffic is starting to trickle in here and there, but DVT hasn't yet cranked up enough there; they moreso seem to be overflow for SDL, but that may improve more.
I understand what you see day to day and that's cool. I'm just comparing to what's been in the past 3.5 decades. None of this is DVTs fault, as they're doing what they can to attract business and make the airport viable, and they're woking hard at that. It's moreso the overall state of GA that has been in decline, that they're fighting against. It's a very tough battle.
One of the best restaurants (not necessarily the "airport's" restaurant, but located there) was Anzio's Landing at FFZ on the northeast side of the field. Could taxi right to it. Even with that side of the field as an airpark, they still had to close and move a few miles away. Sucks, as it was a very nice restaurant, as well as good food and dinner service. FFZ is landlocked with no room for expansion and is noise abatement hell, almost as bad as SDL is.
PHX is another one. The north ramp along Air Lane used to be bustling: From 24th street eastward, you had GA hangars and open parking, SRPs hangar, AZ DPS hangar, Ameriflight, Scenic Air Cargo (gone), the Left Seat restaurant, Honeywell/Garrett, and US Customs (now RJ maintenance). That north ramp is practically a ghost town now. Left Seat closed......used to be able to walk from ramp right in, as well as sit upstairs in the open-air observation deck. Sadly, no more. The old FBO row mid-field on the north side, west of the practically-abandoned Lincoln Ragsdale Executive Terminal, is also nearly a ghost town. Cutter and Swift on the south side do well with corporate traffic, but light GA is next to non-existant there.
GYR is nearly fully dependant on Lufthansa for flying operations, and airliner storage for non-flying ops. And it's noise abatement hell too.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Childress TX
z987k
Well-Known Member
There's an 11 year wait list to get a float slip at my airport. I'm not even sure it's possible to get a hangar without buying or building one. I got the last tie down spot available, but apparently 2-3 come available and are leased every month. They're re-doing a lot of the parking to add electric outlets for pre-heat.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
"it was colder than usual this last winter, global warming is a hoax"
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
My airport had the same problem with hangars. What they discovered is that people who had a lot of the hangars hadn't had airplanes in them in many years but kept them because it was cheaper than renting the same amount of storage space off of the airport.
They passed a rule that said the tail number registered to the hangar must be in the hangar... now you can walk over and get a hangar right now if you want one.
