Living the Dream Paying back the loan

[dbrault17]

Gee, nevermind the fact you signed a contract saying you'd pay back the money, and if you were smart you knew the terms of the contract going in, and actually thought about what the payment would be where you were done.

News flash: If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

Add me to your list of people who will never personally hand your resume to my employer.

Harsh.

Not taking sides here but when I signed the dotted lines my payments where supposed to be around 300 a month. Right now its over 7. Couldn't have told you what a business cycle was or predict the RJ market, Gas topping 150/barrell, age 65, etc. Circumstances change.

I still think its funny when us 'commoners' think about money its all about morality. When finacial institutions think about money its business.

 

[jspeed87]

So, the guy who's $150,000+ in debt because he (mistakenly) thought he'd be in the left seat at a regional by now should eat dog food every night living with mom because he's an indentured servant to Sallie Mae?

Nah man, you've got one life to live, and that's no way to live it. I'm not going to default or go into bankruptcy to get rid of my loans...I'm at about the point I can pay them comfortably. But, don't expect that people are going to trash their own lives because Sallie Mae needs their cash and the industry took a crap.

EDIT: I've noticed that most people who slam other people's integrity in terms of paying off debt are the ones with little to no debt of their own. Walk a mile in another man's shoes before you spit poison at him.

:clap: :beer:

 

[Murdoughnut]

So, the guy who's $150,000+ in debt because he (mistakenly) thought he'd be in the left seat at a regional by now should eat dog food every night living with mom because he's an indentured servant to Sallie Mae?

Nah man, you've got one life to live, and that's no way to live it. I'm not going to default or go into bankruptcy to get rid of my loans...I'm at about the point I can pay them comfortably. But, don't expect that people are going to trash their own lives because Sallie Mae needs their cash and the industry took a crap.

EDIT: I've noticed that most people who slam other people's integrity in terms of paying off debt are the ones with little to no debt of their own. Walk a mile in another man's shoes before you spit poison at him.

I don't think anyone here is spitting poison. There are many here, myself included, who believe that taking $150k in loans for a $20k job (if you can get it) might not be a great idea. I'm not going to stop someone from signing the dotted line, but if it comes up, I'll give my opinion.

Once you commit to it, your on your own. Don't need to walk a mile in anyone's shoes - I just wish them well and hope they can afford to pay back that loan and eat. But at the end of the day, I fall asleep regardless.

The nature of the investment is that sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn't. As long as people know that going into it, I'm happy.

 

[Roger, Roger]

So, the guy who's $150,000+ in debt because he (mistakenly) thought he'd be in the left seat at a regional by now should eat dog food every night living with mom because he's an indentured servant to Sallie Mae?

Nah man, you've got one life to live, and that's no way to live it. I'm not going to default or go into bankruptcy to get rid of my loans...I'm at about the point I can pay them comfortably. But, don't expect that people are going to trash their own lives because Sallie Mae needs their cash and the industry took a crap.

EDIT: I've noticed that most people who slam other people's integrity in terms of paying off debt are the ones with little to no debt of their own. Walk a mile in another man's shoes before you spit poison at him.

You MAY have a point.

However, look at jspeed's posting history.
http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/80257-bad-credit-loans.html
I think he is entitled to getting a little "we-told-you-so".

 

[jspeed87]

You MAY have a point.

However, look at jspeed's posting history.
http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/80257-bad-credit-loans.html
I think he is entitled to getting a little "we-told-you-so".

ugh seriously man?? you did that? lol back to the original thread.

 

[rd757]

ugh seriously man?? you did that? lol back to the original thread.

So you ask everyone how to obtain more debt because you can't wait to fly, and now you have come back to ask how to pay all the money they told you not to borrow, back....

Sounds like you should have thought this all out beforehand. :dunno:

 

[dasleben]

I don't think anyone here is spitting poison. There are many here, myself included, who believe that taking $150k in loans for a $20k job (if you can get it) might not be a great idea. I'm not going to stop someone from signing the dotted line, but if it comes up, I'll give my opinion.

Once you commit to it, your on your own. Don't need to walk a mile in anyone's shoes - I just wish them well and hope they can afford to pay back that loan and eat. But at the end of the day, I fall asleep regardless.

The nature of the investment is that sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn't. As long as people know that going into it, I'm happy.

Well, I started flight training before 9/11 when things were still hunky-dory and the RJs still hadn't made a huge appearance. Nowadays? Yeah, I'd think twice, but I know better these days. When I went to school and pulled out a bunch of loans, the career outlook was much different. I was also 17 and just wanted to fly airplanes.

You MAY have a point.

However, look at jspeed's posting history.
http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/80257-bad-credit-loans.html
I think he is entitled to getting a little "we-told-you-so".

Well, I'm not terribly interested in jspeed's posting history. My point remains: Do your absolute best to pay back your loans (I know I am), but man, don't ruin your life over them. Life is so much more important than big business, and I think many people forget about that. I have a friend who's over $200,000 in debt, and got furloughed from his regional when oil spiked. Nobody saw that coming, especially an average line pilot like him. He was forced to move back home and spend all of his unemployment on loan repayment. Really really crappy.

Consequently, he's hoping he can discharge his loans through Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Do I lecture him about fiscal responsibility? Absolutely not. He's 26, lives at home with no money, and is basically depressed because a multi-billion per year company wants their money. What's more important? His life or the note?

I highly recommend watching the film The Edukators. It's a German film, so check it out if you don't mind subtitles. Basically, the story is based on a girl in her early twenties without insurance who accidentally rear-ends a rich businessman's Mercedes. In turn, he sues her for the cost of the car, which in the movie is right around 100,000 Euros (120,000 USD as of right now). I won't ruin the story, but the movie makes the point that life is so much more important than money could ever be.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Well, I'm not terribly interested in jspeed's posting history. My point remains: Do your absolute best to pay back your loans (I know I am), but man, don't ruin your life over them. Life is so much more important than big business, and I think many people forget about that. I have a friend who's over $200,000 in debt, and got furloughed from his regional when oil spiked. Nobody saw that coming, especially an average line pilot like him. He was forced to move back home and spend all of his unemployment on loan repayment. Really really crappy.

Consequently, he's hoping he can discharge his loans through Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Do I lecture him about fiscal responsibility? Absolutely not. He's 26, lives at home with no money, and is basically depressed because a multi-billion per year company wants their money. What's more important? His life or the note?

I highly recommend watching the film The Edukators. It's a German film, so check it out if you don't mind subtitles. Basically, the story is based on a girl in her early twenties without insurance who accidentally rear-ends a rich businessman's Mercedes. In turn, he sues her for the cost of the car, which in the movie is right around 100,000 Euros (120,000 USD as of right now). I won't ruin the story, but the movie makes the point that life is so much more important than money could ever be.

It really sucks for your friend, and I know he got handed kind of a crap sandwich. But this thread was started by and is about jspeed. This cat HAD BAD CREDIT ALREADY and was looking for people to advise him about taking out MORE LOANS to do flight training while the industry was in the absolute pits. The collective opinion of everyone from newbie student pilots up to the Big Man himself was "are you out of your freaking MIND?" and now here he is asking for advice on how to make it on CFI pay, or how to get out of the loans.

Actions, meet consequences.

 

[jspeed87]

Well, I started flight training before 9/11 when things were still hunky-dory and the RJs still hadn't made a huge appearance. Nowadays? Yeah, I'd think twice, but I know better these days. When I went to school and pulled out a bunch of loans, the career outlook was much different. I was also 17 and just wanted to fly airplanes.



Well, I'm not terribly interested in jspeed's posting history. My point remains: Do your absolute best to pay back your loans (I know I am), but man, don't ruin your life over them. Life is so much more important than big business, and I think many people forget about that. I have a friend who's over $200,000 in debt, and got furloughed from his regional when oil spiked. Nobody saw that coming, especially an average line pilot like him. He was forced to move back home and spend all of his unemployment on loan repayment. Really really crappy.

Consequently, he's hoping he can discharge his loans through Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Do I lecture him about fiscal responsibility? Absolutely not. He's 26, lives at home with no money, and is basically depressed because a multi-billion per year company wants their money. What's more important? His life or the note?

I highly recommend watching the film The Edukators. It's a German film, so check it out if you don't mind subtitles. Basically, the story is based on a girl in her early twenties without insurance who accidentally rear-ends a rich businessman's Mercedes. In turn, he sues her for the cost of the car, which in the movie is right around 100,000 Euros (120,000 USD as of right now). I won't ruin the story, but the movie makes the point that life is so much more important than money could ever be.

thanks and I will check out that movie if its on youtube. Anyway my original question was what people who finished flight school are doing to supplement their CFI pay. jeez.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Well, I started flight training before 9/11 when things were still hunky-dory and the RJs still hadn't made a huge appearance. Nowadays? Yeah, I'd think twice, but I know better these days. When I went to school and pulled out a bunch of loans, the career outlook was much different. I was also 17 and just wanted to fly airplanes.

Nothing to be ashamed of. I bought a house that I thought would grow in value each year. I was wrong, along with a fudge-million other people.

 

[lilrkt]

I started flying (borrowing to do so), bought a house, and got married all around 2000. This was a few years after starting a career in IT. I thought that I would love being a pilot more than sitting behind a desk. Well, the marriage has taken some bumps, but is still going strong. The house tanked in value and we are now renting it out and have bought another (read, unlike many people we did the right thing and did not default). The flying....well I do love it, but I saw the writing on the wall, and after obtaining the commercial, decided to stick with the IT. Turns out that the IT career is now what is paying for my flying debt, the two houses and a decent life.

The moral is everyone makes good and bad decisions. Just own up to the bad ones and learn from it. The second moral is there is more money is IT than flying. That said, do the CFI thing and wait tables. You will get there if you are determined enough.

 

[TallFlyer]

why can you invest in a business and well, if you lose your money...too bad...

why is it different if a business invests in you and they lose their money?

Just another shot at your post, but you're confusing loans and investments. Two entirely different animals.

A loan is just that: a loan. One entity gives another entity money with the expectation of being paid back. The risk is generally somewhat low, therefore the return is low also. An investment is money given in exchange for some ownership share in an enterprise. That share may go up in value or it may go down. Returns can be pretty decent depending on what you're buying, but you can also loose your shirt. Caveat Emptor.

When a bank loans you money they are expecting that their money is going to get repaid, plus interest. Their return is somewhat locked in. When you accept a loan for education of some sort you are making an investment; that investment may or may not have a return for you.

Here's a question for some: Would you go borrow 6 figures from a bank to make an investment that may return 20%, but is far more likely to tank and take all your money with it? What's the difference between that hypothetical scenario and what some have done with regard to financing training?

So, the guy who's $150,000+ in debt because he (mistakenly) thought he'd be in the left seat at a regional by now should eat dog food every night living with mom because he's an indentured servant to Sallie Mae?

My advice to that guy would be to continue somehow to earn an income, get on a tight budget taking care of necessities first, and then with whatever is remaining keep servicing his debt. Is his credit going to get trashed? Sure, but he made the decision to risk putting himself into that position by financing his training.

I'd have much more respect for that guy than I would some moron who just proclaims to the world he'd rather give the man the finger and move to Africa.

EDIT: I've noticed that most people who slam other people's integrity in terms of paying off debt are the ones with little to no debt of their own. Walk a mile in another man's shoes before you spit poison at him.

That's hilarious. That's like saying debt is some congenital disease that one has no control over. Here's an idea, be prepared in all situations to deal with the consequences of your own actions. Man up and deal with it. Do I have a lot of debt? I have just over $10,000 and a $200 payment. I can afford that whether I'm flying airplanes or flipping burgers.

 

[TallFlyer]

Harsh.

Not really. Think about it, if you have someone proclaim to the world that he's more than willing to give anyone and everyone the finger if it suites him would you really want to waste your credibility on him? Is that a guy you want to work with everyday? Is that a guy you want representing the company your work for to the FAA?

I still think its funny when us 'commoners' think about money its all about morality. When finacial institutions think about money its business.

Actually it's all about the law, but you're right that individuals and corporations think about it in different ways. If it were perfectly legal for me to not have to pay back the balance of my loans without any consequences on my part I'd do so in a heartbeat. If you get a teaching degree in the state of Alaska then teach in bush schools for 5 years then they forgive your loans. If only they'd do that for pilots......

Anyway my original question was what people who finished flight school are doing to supplement their CFI pay. jeez.

Eh, it's pretty simple actually.....

Get a job.

 

[jspeed87]

ugh I know, but what kind of jobs! I want to hear what Txaviator has to say!... I'm inviting txaviator to post on my thread everyone else do not post. :cwm27:

 

[SteveC]

EDIT: I've noticed that most people who slam other people's integrity in terms of paying off debt are the ones with little to no debt of their own. Walk a mile in another man's shoes before you spit poison at him.

BTDT.

I had a gorgeous black Pontiac Trans Am get repossessed about a year after getting laid off from a nice paying automotive job in my younger days. The bank sold the car at auction for less than I owed, so then I owed them money for something that I no longer even had, and on top of that I had to scrape some money together to get some temporary wheels because I had finally gotten some work to pay some bills. Eventually I paid the bank off in full, spent quite a few years getting back on my feet, and LEARNED MY LESSON.

Feel free to learn from the mistakes that I and others made. Or go ahead and make your own mistakes. Either way it's no skin off my back.

 

[Ian_J]

ugh I know, but what kind of jobs! I want to hear what Txaviator has to say!... I'm inviting txaviator to post on my thread everyone else do not post. :cwm27:

If you're going to listen to anyone on this subject, listen to SteveC. Go search his "accumulated loan rant" series and read every word. After that, apply appropriate changes to your life.

 

[dasleben]

That's hilarious. That's like saying debt is some congenital disease that one has no control over. Here's an idea, be prepared in all situations to deal with the consequences of your own actions. Man up and deal with it. Do I have a lot of debt? I have just over $10,000 and a $200 payment. I can afford that whether I'm flying airplanes or flipping burgers.

Good on ya. I wish I could build a time machine and go back and change things. I can't. I'm living with my mistake successfully. However, there are people out there who can't survive because the loan payments are taking their entire paycheck. Is it immoral for them to get out of debt through bankruptcy?

And on that same point...

BTDT.

I had a gorgeous black Pontiac Trans Am get repossessed about a year after getting laid off from a nice paying automotive job in my younger days. The bank sold the car at auction for less than I owed, so then I owed them money for something that I no longer even had, and on top of that I had to scrape some money together to get some temporary wheels because I had finally gotten some work to pay some bills. Eventually I paid the bank off in full, spent quite a few years getting back on my feet, and LEARNED MY LESSON.

Feel free to learn from the mistakes that I and others made. Or go ahead and make your own mistakes. Either way it's no skin off my back.

Not sure why you're lecturing me. My mistakes have already been made...I'm established in this career and well past the point of needing loans to pay for my flying. And as I've pointed out too, I'm not defaulting or filing bankruptcy over it. :dunno:

There is, however, a big difference between car debt and the debt some of these recent college grads are coming out of school with. I agree that fiscal responsibility is important, but the high interest rates and the difficulty of deferring private loans has ruined many people's lives, not just out of work pilots.

Should they be offered a fair deal to do something about it (particularly now after the industry collapsed), or should they be an indentured servant to the large lending businesses for the rest of their natural born lives?

Yep, these guys blew it by taking out a lot of debt they couldn't pay back. But, does that crime really warrant the punishment of the inability to afford a house, get married, have kids, etc., ever?

 

[TallFlyer]

However, there are people out there who can't survive because the loan payments are taking their entire paycheck. Is it immoral for them to get out of debt through bankruptcy?

Absolutely not. If there in a situation where they need that relief and they can swallow that pill then more power to them. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not really about discussing it in the light of 'morals.' That's a really nebulous concept and has very different meanings depending on whether or not you're in Riyadh or Rochester.

Bottom line: If you borrow money, you should have a plan to pay it back. If you can't pay it back and a BK is an option, and you can live with the consequences of the damage to your credit, then more power to you. Just don't come whining to me about your inability to buy a house in the next 7 years.

Keep in mind that some student loans are not bankruptable.

Should they be offered a fair deal to do something about it (particularly now after the industry collapsed), or should they be an indentured servant to the large lending businesses for the rest of their natural born lives?

Some over exaggeration in this statement. First off, remember that the lending institution is a lender, not an investor. They have absolutely no interest in whether or not you succeed as an aviator. All they care about is your credit-worthiness and whether or not you're going to be paying the loan back.

Remember, the lendee is the investor and the one taking all the risk. The lendee should be able to make a comprehensive, honest assessment of all the risks involved in taking out that much money and hopefully be able to make an intelligent informed decision on whether or not financing that kind of money is an good investment or not. In the end, it's an investment and one should be prepared if that investment totally falls flat.

In the end, if you find yourself in a hole you ligitimately can't get out of and a BK is a legal alternative for you, the more power to you. If you're just lazy and don't want to pay it back, well, yeah. Integrity and all that......

But, does that crime really warrant the punishment of the inability to afford a house, get married, have kids, etc., ever?

Ever is a big word. First off, being in debt does not prevent you from getting married or having kids. One spouse's bad credit does not tarnish the other's. So, one spouse could easily finance a vehicle (not that I would recommend that) or buy a house. Buying a house on your own? Well, that could be a challenge. Maybe that becomes a goal that's 5-10 years out, or more. But it's not like life is over......

 

[dasleben]

Absolutely not. If there in a situation where they need that relief and they can swallow that pill then more power to them. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not really about discussing it in the light of 'morals.' That's a really nebulous concept and has very different meanings depending on whether or not you're in Riyadh or Rochester.

Bottom line: If you borrow money, you should have a plan to pay it back. If you can't pay it back and a BK is an option, and you can live with the consequences of the damage to your credit, then more power to you. Just don't come whining to me about your inability to buy a house in the next 7 years.

Keep in mind that some student loans are not bankruptable.

Some over exaggeration in this statement. First off, remember that the lending institution is a lender, not an investor. They have absolutely no interest in whether or not you succeed as an aviator. All they care about is your credit-worthiness and whether or not you're going to be paying the loan back.

Remember, the lendee is the investor and the one taking all the risk. The lendee should be able to make a comprehensive, honest assessment of all the risks involved in taking out that much money and hopefully be able to make an intelligent informed decision on whether or not financing that kind of money is an good investment or not. In the end, it's an investment and one should be prepared if that investment totally falls flat.

In the end, if you find yourself in a hole you ligitimately can't get out of and a BK is a legal alternative for you, the more power to you. If you're just lazy and don't want to pay it back, well, yeah. Integrity and all that......

Ever is a big word. First off, being in debt does not prevent you from getting married or having kids. One spouse's bad credit does not tarnish the other's. So, one spouse could easily finance a vehicle (not that I would recommend that) or buy a house. Buying a house on your own? Well, that could be a challenge. Maybe that becomes a goal that's 5-10 years out, or more. But it's not like life is over......

After reading your post, I think we're basically on the same page. Bankruptcy should be an option, but an option that should be avoided if at all possible.

Good with that? :beer:

 

[SteveC]

Not sure why you're lecturing me. My mistakes have already been made...I'm established in this career and well past the point of needing loans to pay for my flying. And as I've pointed out too, I'm not defaulting or filing bankruptcy over it. :dunno:

I'm not lecturing you. You told me, among others, to "Walk a mile in another man's shoes before you spit poison at him" so I'm simply letting you know that I've been in those shoes.

There is, however, a big difference between car debt and the debt some of these recent college grads are coming out of school with.

It's the same problem though, even if the scope varies.

I agree that fiscal responsibility is important, but the high interest rates and the difficulty of deferring private loans has ruined many people's lives, not just out of work pilots.

Should they be offered a fair deal to do something about it (particularly now after the industry collapsed), or should they be an indentured servant to the large lending businesses for the rest of their natural born lives?

Yep, these guys blew it by taking out a lot of debt they couldn't pay back. But, does that crime really warrant the punishment of the inability to afford a house, get married, have kids, etc., ever?

No, I'm not buying it. People that take on 100,000 to 200,000 in debt do so knowing full well that it takes income to pay that loan back. The economy taking a dump surely hurts those people's ability to pay back the loan NOW, but it does not change the long term outlook of their ability to pay it back. Just because they can't find a decent paying job in their chosen field today does not mean that they will NEVER be able to do so. Nor does it prevent them from finding other alternate sources of income to put minimal payments against those obligations. Eventually things will turn around, people will get better jobs than they can today, and they will eventually have the ability to pay those obligations.

Too many people have a skewed perception of 'wants' versus 'needs'. Here's an example of a head scratcher: people that can't afford to pay their loans yet will put somewhere between $1000 and $2000 a year into smart phones with data plans and home internet access. Humph. I like my JC time as much as anybody, but it is NOT something that is a "need", it's a "want".

One of the lessons that I learned the hard way is that I was foolish to put money into "wants" when I couldn't afford to meet my financial obligations. The answer was two-fold. First to quit spending money on non-essential items. The second was to reduce my financial obligations to a level that I could afford (drive a junker instead of having car payments; move to a smaller apartment in a less desirable area; learn how to make good meals cheaply at home, lots of ways to do this).

I don't believe this "indentured servant" and " inability to afford a house, get married, have kids, etc., ever?" kind of talk. There are other options. They aren't easy and they take a LOT of work and dedication and sacrifice.