Living the Dream Paying back the loan

[TallFlyer]

After reading your post, I think we're basically on the same page. Bankruptcy should be an option, but an option that should be avoided if at all possible.

Good with that? :beer:

Generally yes, but I'm real comfortable with SteveC's take on the subject.

The one thing I'll add is that I firmly believe that the guys that are significantly in debt and depressed, etc about it are probably more in need of a perspective adjustment than a financial adjustment. Take a deep breath, put one foot in front of the other, and this too shall pass. As I believe Winston Churchill once said, "If you find yourself going though hell, keep going."

 

[SteveC]

The one thing I'll add is that I firmly believe that the guys that are significantly in debt and depressed, etc about it are probably more in need of a perspective adjustment than a financial adjustment. Take a deep breath, put one foot in front of the other, and this too shall pass. As I believe Winston Churchill once said, "If you find yourself going though hell, keep going."

I like the way that you presented this better than my version.

 

[DCTNstudentpilot1987]

At least in my time in high school and college (started high school 2001, graduate college 2010), I always heard especially in college a lot about how the economy is growing and how it wont stop. I always sensed an attitude that the money spent was worth it because the growing economy would always allow for high paying jobs to pay off whatever loans there were when they got the degree. I think many people bought into this reasoning and failed to take i account any possible risks or believed the benefits were greater than the risks. I think too often that our country allows young people to make dumb decisions by allowing for a young and dumb mentality for just about every mistake they make. This mentality has made too many young people impulsive and many have failed to use their minds that God has given them to make a well-informed choice. It is easy to blame an institution or something bigger than yourself for your mistakes but this only encourages more failures in the future by taking out the personal responsibility.

I would be the first to say the student loan business is a racket. However, they only are able to be that way because many people dont THINK! Before you take out money it should be common sense even for an 18 year old to wonder what will happen if the worst case scenario happens and he doesnt realize his goals. Even more, the people around him also can fail by not using their brains. An 18 year old may be naive and inexperienced but parents and high school counselors and teachers should know better and give a realistic picture of the costs and what will happen in a worst case scenario. When big money is involved you need to do more than just wing it and hope for a bailout when things go sour.

I honestly dont know why anyone would take out a loan to fly given the state of the industry. It is a volatile industry. It goes up and down. Some get lucky and hit the industry at the right time but others have to spend a lot of time building up experience to get to the crappy paying regional right-seat job. Most of those jobs do not pay well because they are oriented around people looking for a stepping stone. The CFI jobs that pay well usually are in a more permanent career position and not a simple time building job. This is the same for freight dogs. Given the poor pay and the lack of jobs at the highest pay levels, I can only recommend going military or paying as you go. Even in 2007 when hiring was strong and everyone thought it would never end, 60K in loans for this job was silly because of how little the job paid. Pinnacle, for example, takes several years to get above 30K a year in pay. AE takes 10 years to get above 40K.

I will take it to another level. Taking out huge loans for flying is not only dumb but has the potential to be flat out unsafe flying wise. FO Shaw paid a lot of money to learn to fly and had to work at Starbucks to support herself when she was a CFI. If she made a better financial choice and gone into Colgan with some money built up by slowly acquiring her ratings over time, she could have gone into a crappy job like Colgan with a better financial state and could have afforded a hotel instead of pulling an all night commute with little sleep in a crew break area. She could have also waited for that call from a good place like ExpressJet. People that are desperate for money will do things they never would consider when they have a good financial state. They will push themselves sometimes beyond their limits. I see it happen with people at desk jobs all the time. I could imagine that they would choose to fly sick if they were pilots because the need for money is worth the slight risk statistically to their well being. FO Shaw pushed herself beyond her limits trying to get a paycheck and when she was called upon to handle an emergency she was not in the proper state of mind to react to the situation that faced her.

 

[Wing_96]

...Or go ahead and make your own mistakes. Either way it's no skin off my back.

Unfortunately, it is skin off of your back, and mine, and every other tax-payer on this board. Every time the govt sends bailout money, it's skin off of our back.

 

[Sol Rosenburg]

Beans and rice, rice and beans. SteveC is pretty dead on. Wants and needs. Don't spend all your per diem on beer and pretzels when on the road. If you aint on the road cook at home. Little stuff adds up big time, I've learned this.

I also took at least 4 years or so getting from private through a commercial license since I was NOT going to take out 50+K at the time. I did take 10, paid it off, stopped flying for 6 months to do this then took another 12 to finish up through multi ratings piece wising it helped to keep things in perspective for my personal ability. For every guy out there that BKs or defaults it makes the rates higher for all the rest of us. Pilots should be responsible people even ATPs and with money!

 

[drunkenbeagle]

well I do love it, but I saw the writing on the wall, and after obtaining the commercial, decided to stick with the IT. Turns out that the IT career is now what is paying for my flying debt, the two houses and a decent life.

As grouchy as I can get about IT sometimes, it isn't a bad gig. Much like flying, it was a better gig 15 years ago. (My pay has gone down every year since leaving college, but my expenses have gone up). But it does pay the bills, and I can CFI on the side to get my flying fix. Fortunately, I took on no debt for either. Thanks Uncle Sam!

A wise man once told me, "The secret to like, kid, is low overhead." Powerful words.

 

[dbrault17]

Actually it's all about the law, but you're right that individuals and corporations think about it in different ways. If it were perfectly legal for me to not have to pay back the balance of my loans without any consequences on my part I'd do so in a heartbeat.
Get a job.

Soooo if it were legal to just shoot TXaviator and there were no consequences you would that? I had much more respect for your post when said 'you wouldn't walk in TXaviator resume to your employer' based on what you thought was right (blowing off his debt obligations). Now you're saying its just a matter of technicality.

You know at one point slavery was legal? Heck, exterminating Jews was legal in Germany in our not too distant past. I have more respect for someone defying public opionion in defense of their values than someone just 'staying in line' with the status quo.

 

[wheelsup]

Well, I started flight training before 9/11 when things were still hunky-dory and the RJs still hadn't made a huge appearance. Nowadays? Yeah, I'd think twice, but I know better these days. When I went to school and pulled out a bunch of loans, the career outlook was much different. I was also 17 and just wanted to fly airplanes.



Well, I'm not terribly interested in jspeed's posting history. My point remains: Do your absolute best to pay back your loans (I know I am), but man, don't ruin your life over them. Life is so much more important than big business, and I think many people forget about that. I have a friend who's over $200,000 in debt, and got furloughed from his regional when oil spiked. Nobody saw that coming, especially an average line pilot like him. He was forced to move back home and spend all of his unemployment on loan repayment. Really really crappy.

What did he do to go $200k into debt? Flight training loans are only around $40k-$50k at tops for the ratings. That means his undergraduate degree cost $150k?

Maybe he needs to put that education to work! My BIL graduated with $150k in debt but made 6 figures out of college as a programmer for a government contractor.

When I got short of money I went out and made more, it was an incentive. I ended up learning web design and doing it on the side to pay my rent.

 

[wrxpilot]

So, the guy who's $150,000+ in debt because he (mistakenly) thought he'd be in the left seat at a regional by now should eat dog food every night living with mom because he's an indentured servant to Sallie Mae?

I sympathize with you guys that are having to make these large payments, but what you wrote almost sounds like entitlement.

There was never a guarantee made to any of us that we were going to be captains in less than five years... There was plenty of information out there when all of us started flight training about how devastating a large amount of debt can be for an entry level pilot.

When I graduated college in 2001, I had a lot of debt. Student loans, credit cards, new motorcycle, and a new car. It was just stupid of me to get into so many financial obligations, but I had absolutely NOBODY to blame but myself (that's for you, TXAVIATOR). I had to sacrifice a lot to get out from underneath that debt. But I sure learned a lot, and am much more careful now.

Even after all of that, the thought of getting a loan was very, very tempting to me at times when I was paying cash for my flight training. I felt like my training took forever, and I just wanted to quit working at a job I hated and start flying for a living. But I just knew that this wasn't in my best interest financially after running several Excel spreadsheets. Numbers don't lie, and it was a good way to dispel the glossy flight school ads. I started flying in May 2004, and was a CFI in July 2007. So even though it took some time, it wasn't that bad.

I'm sorry you guys have a high debt load that you are unable to afford. But for those in that situation, you have nobody to blame but yourselves. Hopefully you're able to get second jobs or something to get out of the debt spiral... Once you get out, you'll never want to go back.

 

[wrxpilot]

For Jspeed87:

I have zero sympathy for your situation. After all of the excellent advice that was given to you here over a year ago, you decided to blow everybody off and get into debt anyway (at the worst possible time).

Check out this post I made a few years back:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/33145-my-patience-wearing-thin.html

I listened to the people here that had experience, and as a result my life now is SIGNIFICANTLY better than had I decided to get those loans. Quit looking for the easy way out again, shut up, and listen to what people are saying here. That sounds harsh, but you really need a reality check. Your future self will thank you.

 

[Maurus]

Yep, these guys blew it by taking out a lot of debt they couldn't pay back. But, does that crime really warrant the punishment of the inability to afford a house, get married, have kids, etc., ever?

Isn't this the type of thinking that got us into this economic situation we are currently living in?

It is the bank's money. If you don't like the terms, don't sign the dotted line. Unfortunately the banks didn't have that option themselves.

 

[dasleben]

I sympathize with you guys that are having to make these large payments, but what you wrote almost sounds like entitlement.

There was never a guarantee made to any of us that we were going to be captains in less than five years... There was plenty of information out there when all of us started flight training about how devastating a large amount of debt can be for an entry level pilot.

When I graduated college in 2001, I had a lot of debt. Student loans, credit cards, new motorcycle, and a new car. It was just stupid of me to get into so many financial obligations, but I had absolutely NOBODY to blame but myself (that's for you, TXAVIATOR). I had to sacrifice a lot to get out from underneath that debt. But I sure learned a lot, and am much more careful now.

Even after all of that, the thought of getting a loan was very, very tempting to me at times when I was paying cash for my flight training. I felt like my training took forever, and I just wanted to quit working at a job I hated and start flying for a living. But I just knew that this wasn't in my best interest financially after running several Excel spreadsheets. Numbers don't lie, and it was a good way to dispel the glossy flight school ads. I started flying in May 2004, and was a CFI in July 2007. So even though it took some time, it wasn't that bad.

I'm sorry you guys have a high debt load that you are unable to afford. But for those in that situation, you have nobody to blame but yourselves. Hopefully you're able to get second jobs or something to get out of the debt spiral... Once you get out, you'll never want to go back.

The only debt I have is student loans. Paid off the last cent on my credit cards last year. I'm not personally in a tough spot financially, but man, there are some guys out there who are royally screwed. I think they may deserve a second chance if they're so buried they can't even move out of mom and dad's house, don't you?

And yes, hindsight is 20/20.

Isn't this the type of thinking that got us into this economic situation we are currently living in?

It is the bank's money. If you don't like the terms, don't sign the dotted line. Unfortunately the banks didn't have that option themselves.

Aww, poor banks. :bandit:

Individuals should be afforded the same opportunities to get out of debt as banks and businesses are.

Guys, listen (do I need to bold this?). I'm not advocating randomly filing for bankruptcy just to "get out" of your student loans. However, I'm willing to stand up and say that a person's life is more important than a signature on a dotted line. The individual always comes ahead of Big Business in my mind. Sorry if you don't agree.

What the banks really need to start doing (and it appears they have) is being more careful about who they lend to. That's how this whole problem would be avoided.

 

[TallFlyer]

Soooo if it were legal to just shoot TXaviator and there were no consequences you would that? I had much more respect for your post when said 'you wouldn't walk in TXaviator resume to your employer' based on what you thought was right (blowing off his debt obligations). Now you're saying its just a matter of technicality.

Dude, really? Straight up question: Would you rather keep 10 grand or give it to someone else? Really, not a trick question. The reality is I borrowed money, knowing full well the consequences are I have to pay it back with interest. If the state of Alaska (from whom I borrowed the money) sent me a letter tomorrow saying all is forgiven would I keep it? Oh heck yeah..... Am I all about paying it back because that's the agreement the state and I have? Absolutely.

Apples and oranges to what Mr Texmex is advocating.

You know at one point slavery was legal? Heck, exterminating Jews was legal in Germany in our not too distant past.

Your point?

I have more respect for someone defying public opinion in defense of their values than someone just 'staying in line' with the status quo.

Let me say it again: Dude, really?

You have more respect for someone willingly giving the finger to his obligations vs someone who actually read what he's signing and abiding by it?

 

[AngelFuree]

You have more respect for someone willingly giving the finger to his obligations vs someone who actually read what he's signing and abiding by it?

God, I detest it when people put a twist on words. The guy didn't say that. Go back and re-read what he wrote.

 

[TallFlyer]

God, I detest it when people put a twist on words. The guy didn't say that. Go back and re-read what he wrote.

Hmmm.... ok, lemme break it down for you.....

TX original statement was this:

defer, or just leave the country and tell creditors to F off.

Which apparently dbrault17 equates to:

someone defying public opinion in defense of their values

Whereas I, someone who actually knows what I signed and have a plan to pay back am:

someone just 'staying in line' with the status quo.

Here's a question for you. Say you loan someone some money. Said person later decides to leave the country and tells you to F off. Is that person noble and bold and 'defying public opinion,' or is he just a thief?

 

[AngelFuree]

Hmmm.... ok, lemme break it down for you.....

TX original statement was this:

Which apparently dbrault17 equates to:

Whereas I, someone who actually knows what I signed and have a plan to pay back am:


Here's a question for you. Say you loan someone some money. Said person later decides to leave the country and tells you to F off. Is that person noble and bold and 'defying public opinion,' or is he just a thief?

Oh my. Here we go. Look, "defying public opinion" doesn't mean that such public opinion is necessarily "correct." It is a very common public opinion that homosexuality is wrong/immoral. If you disagree with such opinion, you are, in essence, defying public opinion. Simple as that.

Apply the same to the other user's statement.

edit: Oh, and to answer your question, which I see no reason why you even asked me, not paying off loans and fleeing the country is wrong. I don't agree with it. Don't bring me into that discussion. I only called you out because I really hate seeing people twist words.

 

[intern_mike]

I have my CFI and 100k in private student loans. My dad pays the bulk of them thank God. I currently work two jobs and live at home with no car payment. I was recently offered a job with Avianca Airlines in Colombia and have decided to take it. I'm currently learning Spanish, preparing for the ride.

 

[thehobbit]

Hmmm.... ok, lemme break it down for you.....
Here's a question for you. Say you loan someone some money. Said person later decides to leave the country and tells you to F off. Is that person noble and bold and 'defying public opinion,' or is he just a thief?

Depends if said person changed the terms of the loan after they loaned it to me.

 

[cmill]

As far as someone skipping out on a loan. It takes two to make a bad decision. No lending institution has any right to loan out 100k and expect it to get paid back with CFI wages. Most pilot students are sold a bill of goods that they dont know they cant pay for.

Whos more educated going into it? The debtor or the loaner?

 

[SteveC]

As far as someone skipping out on a loan. It takes two to make a bad decision. No lending institution has any right to loan out 100k and expect it to get paid back with CFI wages. Most pilot students are sold a bill of goods that they dont know they cant pay for.

Whos more educated going into it? The debtor or the loaner?

Interesting justification.

"I didn't know better" could really come in handy in a lot of life situations.