LGA accident

[GolfChuck]

Didn’t SFO change some policies after the AC incident almost landing on the taxiway? I know wasn’t the controller fault the lined up with the taxiway for the closed runway but I thought changes were made there after that incident. I know wouldn’t apply to other airports but maybe this could be coming

After the SFO incident, they updated the ground radar (ASDI/ASCC) to detect a misalignment.

After the "incapacitated" controller at LAS they mandated at least 2 in the tower until midnight.

In my (very limited) experience at big airports, the duties in the tower will be split where one of those controllers is working Tower and Ground while the other controller works everything else (flight data, clearance delivery, traffic management, supervisory duties). Think pilot flying/pilot monitoring, heads-up/heads-down. With 2 in the tower this is how it should be done IMO. In instances where traffic level is still too busy for that due to severe weather delays, etc, the latest night shift controllers will be held over for overtime.

The FAA will not fix its staffing problems until it fixes ATC pay. The quality of new hires has gone way down. If you are from New York, don't have a college degree, and don't want to be sent 1000 miles from home, why would you take a job where the absolute best you could hope for is FRG or HPN, but you're more likely to start your career at FSD, when going to work for one of the regional railroads instead would offer you the same benefits, better pay, and you'd be guaranteed to stay close to home?

 

[NovemberEcho]

A big problem with midnight ops is that when there’s wx during the day and delays, everything from earlier gets pushed back. Then when TMU goes home at 10-1030, all the metering programs end. It is very common that the busiest you’ll ever be in your career is the first few hours of a mid.

 

[ahw01]

0338Z = 11:38pm local time. Normal operating hours. Curfews are the exception, not the norm here. I’d rather not have more of them. Assigning blame to the ARFF vehicle driver is wildly inappropriate.

I think you’re out of your depth on this one.

Thanks newbie

 

[killbilly]

Fire truck Handline or turret water pressure down the engine intakes to kill them.



Some immediate questions that come to mind.

Even though the fire trucks were cleared to cross the runway, did the apparatus driver physically look both ways prior to crossing? If so, how did he not see landing lights that would arguably have been on short final? Even if there was some fog reported, the glow of the lights will be there.

The truck acknowledged the crossing clearance, how did he not hear or acknowledge the multiple calls by the controller to stop?

@Minuteman - If the FADEC loses connection with the engines, do they shut down?

Taxiway D is at an angle to the runway...sightlines are compromised.

And if you listen to the recording, it would have been easy to miss the stop command since there was also a stop given to an aircraft (Frontier) right before.

24mph contact? Looks a lot higher than that. Ugh.

Guessing that's last reported speed, after impact.

 

[USMCmech]

The truck acknowledged the crossing clearance, how did he not hear or acknowledge the multiple calls by the controller to stop?

One thing I've heard consistently across many incidents is ARFF seeming to be shockingly ignorant of the airport environment. This and the SFO accident are prime examples. It certainly seems like there needs to be more aviation/pilot POV training for the firemen.

 

[killbilly]

One thing I've heard consistently across many incidents is ARFF seeming to be shockingly ignorant of the airport environment. This and the SFO accident are prime examples. It certainly seems like there needs to be more aviation/pilot POV training for the firemen.

They were also responding to another emergency, so it's entirely possible that someone else in the cab of the truck was talking to the guy driving, and expectation bias messed them both up. I mean, how many times have we missed radio calls on the flight deck because we were talking about some other aspect of the flight?

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Makes it even more head scratching. Moving anywhere on an airport movement area in a vehicle, it’s so severely emphasized to double check everything as a driver. Most especially entering or crossing any runway…..active, inactive, or even closed….for not only runway incursion purposes, but even if cleared to enter/cross a runway. Everywhere else on the airport, things are moving at slow speeds, but not on runways; hence the emphasis.

I witnessed emergency vehicles cut off a CRJ on the CLT ramp. The ramp controllers didn’t say anything, but luckily the CRJ pilots saw them and stopped. They did have their flashing lights on. I was under the assumption that all ground vehicles give way to aircraft. Is this the case during an emergency?

 

[HeyEng]

In my previous life I was in the express family so this hits home in a big way. But I absolutely don’t understand all these little avgeeks and pilots that post the accident photo on their FB and stories. The aircraft is not even off the taxiway and likely has decesed crew in that photo. That’s someone’s parent or kid. And DO NOT give me this • about “what can we learn” it’s ONE single photo. GTFO here with that •. Like have some • decorum, professionalism and respect. It’s snuff photos at that point. Y’all who post those snuff photos can • all the way off.

I hate to point this out, but there have been numerous posts of those pictures on this very thread. I know this is Derg's LR, but I think multiple pics, just hours after the accident, of the same carnage is unnecessary. If folks want to see, they can seek them out.

 

[HeyEng]

A big problem with midnight ops is that when there’s wx during the day and delays, everything from earlier gets pushed back. Then when TMU goes home at 10-1030, all the metering programs end. It is very common that the busiest you’ll ever be in your career is the first few hours of a mid.

I have never been an ATC controller, nothing close to it. But I do remember from my maintenance days *and* flying days, the Sunday night/Monday morning shift (graves) was the absolute worst for fatigue. I don't know what shifts would be working at that time (fresh on duty/half way through/I have no clue), but I would imagine that is a terrible time to be "the busiest" as a controller.

 

[USMCmech]

 

[Murdoughnut]

Sounds as if the instruction to ARFF was given earlier than thought.

 

[Bob Ridpath]

People are sh*tty and unfortunately the internet has enabled behavior like this by wanting information fast or wanting to be the first to post something. Also doesn’t help that it seems like individuals are desensitized to photos like that.

I was really hoping it was AI for the sake of the flight crew.

I guess, sadly, that some of us are "dessentivied" to it because we have responded to it, or similar things. Might mean we care more for the tragedy wherein we can only pick-up the pieces, not preclude its happening.

 

[nabbyfan]

A big problem with midnight ops is that when there’s wx during the day and delays, everything from earlier gets pushed back. Then when TMU goes home at 10-1030, all the metering programs end. It is very common that the busiest you’ll ever be in your career is the first few hours of a mid.

I’ve gotten my ass kicked on the Mid more than any other situation in my career. Like absolutely out of control busy. We work 6 Center sectors combined and then absorb all 4 sectors of SBA approach, NTD approach and work all our normal redeye Pacific Traffic in addition to nonradar control one in/one out of SBP/SMX/SBA/OXR/CMA/NTD. It’s all worked by one person after about 1030pm and it’s insane.

I’ve been in the agency for 12 years. We’ve been talking about staffing crisis the entire time. NATCA just sent out an email that my area is 65% staffed, and that’s 3rd best in the building. This is the best we can do. It’s never going to get better and the FAA has no intention of ever fixing it or getting us off mandatory OT.

My heart goes out to the crew and everyone affected. I can’t even imagine being the controller and having to live with this. Praying that he has a strong support group and can get whatever help he needs.

 

[CFI A&P]

We work 6 Center sectors combined and then absorb all 4 sectors of SBA approach, NTD approach and work all our normal redeye Pacific Traffic in addition to nonradar control one in/one out of SBP/SMX/SBA/OXR/CMA/NTD. It’s all worked by one person after about 1030pm and it’s insane.

That is a massive swath of airspace and should be criminal to assign that as normal operations.

 

[guywhoflies]

A big problem with midnight ops is that when there’s wx during the day and delays, everything from earlier gets pushed back. Then when TMU goes home at 10-1030, all the metering programs end. It is very common that the busiest you’ll ever be in your career is the first few hours of a mid.

WTF?! TMU goes home at 10-1030 and just leaves you all to figure it out?! They don’t get pushed into mandatory overtime like @GolfChuck mentioned happens with controllers?! At this point, I think it is safe to say the whole ATC system is •ed.

 

[Itchy]

Wonder if the orange mess will blame this on dei….

 

[tlove482]

I witnessed emergency vehicles cut off a CRJ on the CLT ramp. The ramp controllers didn’t say anything, but luckily the CRJ pilots saw them and stopped. They did have their flashing lights on. I was under the assumption that all ground vehicles give way to aircraft. Is this the case during an emergency?

You are correct. Ground vehicles ALWAYS give way to aircraft. I'm sure the emergency vehicle in your scenario got a "ticket"(Notice of Violation) for that. One that serious can cause a driver to lose their movement privileges.

 

[MikeD]

I witnessed emergency vehicles cut off a CRJ on the CLT ramp. The ramp controllers didn’t say anything, but luckily the CRJ pilots saw them and stopped. They did have their flashing lights on. I was under the assumption that all ground vehicles give way to aircraft. Is this the case during an emergency?

Ground vehicles give way to aircraft under normal ops. If an emergency is in progress, ground control will make a general announcement of “emergency in progress, give way to all responding emergency vehicles.”, as emergency vehicles could be coming from multiple different locations/directions on the airport. At that time, the aircraft give way to the emergency vehicles.

 

[MikeD]

One thing I've heard consistently across many incidents is ARFF seeming to be shockingly ignorant of the airport environment. This and the SFO accident are prime examples. It certainly seems like there needs to be more aviation/pilot POV training for the firemen.

Which would be odd, as airport vehicle ops is highly stressed in the training. Even moreso because unlike normal aircraft vehicles, the fire trucks will be making emergency responses in the movement areas.

 

[pwttogfk]

I’ve also experienced ARFF and ops vehicles running around seemingly cluelessly. I don’t think it helps that a good number of ground vehicles have substandard radios or the personnel have poor radio skills (or both). And, bluntly, controllers around NYC have some of the poorest phraseology discipline in the country. I’ve had an easier time understanding ATC in a good number of non-English speaking countries. Can it be cumbersome to use standard phraseology to convey something that plain English could do faster? Yes…but we need to all be on the same page as to the meaning of an instruction with as little ambiguity as possible. Teaching foreign airline cadets way back when reinforced to me how easily ambiguity can occur when departing from standard aviation English.